Tested it with Bloodseeker, mirana, LC, sandking, bara, lycan, CK, sven. Personally I cant find anyway talon could make jungling work or improve jungling on the hero.
Ive managed to make a build with bara to get level 2 at 50sec and then roam but other than that i think its pretty shit.
I could'nt even make it work on bloodseeker which is my most played hero (dead hero ty frog), I dunno it might be decent on druid but i doubt it.
I liked the idea making it a build up into a midas, that or it needs buffed slightly.... maybe more quell dmg to creeps over a regular QB.
You aren't gonna get shit out of this item if you farm small and medium camp, you use this to farm medium and hard camp, it'll let you hit lvl 6 at like 5-6 minutes on LC which is retarded. Also start at the hard camp, whatever you can kill, just burst it down and proceed to kill smaller creeps.
With LC you can actually kill hard camps in decent time from level one. You get level 6 fast but it still takes a lot of time to get your dagger.
^What do you mean a lot of time? You can get it at like 6-6.5 minutes now if you get efficient camps and cut trees and stuff.
This is an item for a roaming/jungling CM. Frostbite one big creep and talon the other - then gank the lane, repeat.
Or if you have less time. Talon + Frostbite on one large creep and its already dead, move on to stack, pull, ward, or gank immediately.
Holy shit, Relentless has managed to get even this item wrong, god damn it. You don't get this on heroes that can kill large creeps easily like CM. That might actually be the single hero you DON'T want this item on.
This item is good on melee heroes who can normally jungle from lvl 3-4 latest with some regen. Some examples would be: LC, N'aix, Lycan.
I think this could also work on troll and juggernaut, not sure, might need to try it in a botmatch to see the farm speed increase.
Talon will be ok for melee junglers, not great. It will be best for roaming supports who do not have time to kill an entire camp and often have low armor. Talon costs very little, but allows you to get one large creep down while roaming. This item will allow supports stacking a camp to get enough value from it quickly to buy wards/smokes/tp without spending mana.
CM will be the best user of the item because it improves this playstyle which already works for her. This is clearly an item for position 5 heroes. The dps increase for jungling over q-blade is tiny. It's only helpful if you are killing one creep and not the whole stack, or if you have a quick way to kill/remove a 2nd creep, like frostbite, devour, enchant, death pact, hand of midas. Then you clear a large camp quickly with Talon.
It is also possible that Anti-mage could use it and gain a slight advantage early. He can get a little jungling done before battlefury this way. Other melee carries could make marginal use of Iron Talon if their laning phase goes badly.
i don't think it will work that's -500 gold which she could have spent on wards like the ward bitch she is
I don't understand relentless' logic at all either. Cm can already easily kill the one hard camp creep and move on, wtf does she need talon for? Sounds like it would be awesome on a hero like lycan, go clear a hard camp level 1, hit 2 or 3 off couple camps and get lvl 2 wolves. Or ursa. Wouldn't need to buy regen just kill hard camps for quick morbid mask then go rosh.
^LC gets a 5min lvl 6 and a 6 min blink dagger if you are efficient enough with this. I still haven't got maximum efficiency out of it because I still need to really figure out the new jungle layout and spawn boxes so I don't block but instead stack every time, but in general, it makes lower level jungling ridiculously easy. You can start from the hard camp, then go back farm it once more and be halfway to lvl 3 at like 1:25 into the game, it's retarded.
Last game I was playing fucking tinker
RAndom invis LC duels me at 9:30
i thought he had invis rune
in fact he just got shadow blade from the jungle. 9:30 GG
^that's what I am talking about, and 9:30 is even kinda late if he just picked it up, now you can get shadowblade at like 8min under ideal circumstances. I am really having a lot of fun with lc/arc warden combo, i tell my arc wardens to max the 2nd skill, for some fucking reason I can counterattack even if the attack misses, and im invincible to right clicks and have +120 bonus attack speed from PTA and +80 bonus attack speed from fucking magnets. It's +200 Attack Speed at lvl 7, and there's literally no hero that can survive that, and this is a blink-only LC. And this provided, ofc, that your AW is not retarded. Also Arc Warden is really hell to play against as a LC, it's basically dazzle/tusk/ww tier except you can get a MKB and be done with it.
So I take it you're no longer convinced the item's completely useless? The item's basically poor man's midas that really costs only 300 gold because you're getting Quelling Blade on those heroes anyway, and it'd be good even without the armor (which is a nice bonus).
This item is very good on Legion, Ursa, and Lycan, everyone else it seems like, hmph. (to me) Haven't tried it on Lone Druid though, but I don't like that hero, so don't care.
hey guys i just derped around in the jungle as LC with tangoes and iron talon.
5:02 - hit lvl 6
7:06 had brown boots and blink dagger, also almost lvl 8. (if you wanted shadow blade, i guess you would have it and boots around 8.
9:00(this one i dont remember exact time but it was close) treads and blink completed. thats 3650 net worth on top of talon about 455 gpm for lvl 1 jungling.
This is in a lobby with no other players in the game, i didnt touch runes or lane creeps, but a decent team will definitely come f*** you up in the jungle. On the plus side, i never had to get more regen and never dropped below 1/3 hp.
Overall i think iron talon is ok, but very good on LC, maybe abuse this in shit-tier games?
Ok just tested again and got super-shitty creep spawns (literally only hellbears and centuars..)
5:30 hit lvl 6, almost died, note to save mana for at least 1 lvl 2 press the attack instead of using it all while you are lvl 3
10:10 treads and blink completed, lvl 9, at least 1 full minute slower with bad spawns.
Should you not get boots at all and rush blink? i feel like flying out parts for treads would improve these timings, but 1 duel would make up for that and more.
^go die
Anyway, just had a similar experience as LPK, got lvl 6 at 5 minutes, got blink at min 6, etc, good shit.
Um, you can still use it to cut trees, and it retains the 4 sec cooldown... I cut trees to make better jungle paths, and then use it for taking 40% life from large creeps every 14sec. Also, it can't be bad if it legitimately produces good results, watch this replay: 2010058793 (http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2010058793), look at the timings, if you think that's bad then I don't know what you think should be good. I even majorly fucked up a few times in that jungle, and was not efficient as much as I could be, and I still got really good timings for blink and lvl 6.
yeah, if you use it on trees it uses the 4s cooldown. it just doesn't say it in the tooltip.
kinda like abyssal blade. basher displays the 2s cooldown of bash but abyssal doesn't because it displays the cooldown of the abyssal active, but abyssal still has a 2s cooldown on it's passive bash.
This item does however show the 4sec cd. You use it on a tree, it goes on a 4sec cooldown, you use it on a creep it's 14sec. You have to time shit right to get the best out of it.
Being able to get extra two-three levels and somewhere between 700 and 1200 gold extra in the first 10 minutes is ridiculous, and you get to keep your investment that actually does something (armor and quell). But I don't see it being that useful if you aren't actually jungling, and it seems valve's bringing the farming meta back with the addition of more camps and this item as well (+1 gold for lane creeps every 7.5 minutes does not hurt either).
Not sure who else its really good on, but LC is good with talon. Also the new AGS for duel is REALLY good once you've got BKB. It allows you to build way more dmg items like crit without getting shrekt in a fight. I hope LC gets into some competitive play this patch, shes a lot better this patch.
After a bunch of games in the new patch I can say two things:
a) Talon makes jungling, especially on LC, insanely fast.
b) Jungling is still very bad and loses you a bunch of games unless every other hero in your team is a strong laner.
@Sir.Swirl: I'm actually getting High Skill matches lately.
a) Yes it does
b) Well, yeah, usually if you pick weak laners you already fucking lost in this meta, and I won't be part of someone's fucking retarded huskar pick against an all physical team, so that guy can go lose his lane alone while I get my blink and boots, because since everyone wants to play a core, even if I instapick LC at the start of the game I'm forced to the jungle 90% of the games, so okay, I will go play jungle, I will take no blame for games lost due to that, I never wanted to jungle this hero, I used to ask for solo offlane all the time (or at least with a laner that's not useless like tusk or lich), but no, people pick stupid shit in normal and high skill, usually force me to jungle and yet I still have ~60% wr even despite not getting a fucking lane, and no I won't support here because people are fucking retarded and don't deserve it (save for a few carry players who are actually doing a good job), I am more than willing to play without a support and buy wards for my own needs than to support people like this and also I can't blame the solo support for anything if I am jungling (I mostly instapick LC at the start of the game tho), so I usually help out with wards and their placement etc, by trying to be everywhere and heal people and get ganks off etc, but the thing is, some people have fucking tunnel vision and won't actually attack the guy I'm dueling so I tilt and say fuck all of this, go back to jungle to farm up more and try ganking another time
I cant see normal MM being any good! all my games are full of disconnects. Why not play ranked to high skill?
![[Lk].Zano](https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/b9/b98e01ce6ef4a5e926a44cdd1564d0e8e5fbfa36_full.jpg "[Lk].Zano")
Let's hear what these 3k players have to say about the meta I could use a good laugh
Its core on cyka blyatt. if you max your Q you get bonus talon damage. 4:30 lvl 6 5min midas
I started using the talon more, and i'm not liking it on legion, i'd rather just make a quelling blade, and turn that ring of protection into a Basillius or something. I only like it on Lycan.
@Sampson:
Well, since the majority of players are in that bracket or slightly below the experiences we have here are kinda important to asess that particular submeta.
@Kenshin: The "meta" is basically that more cores = easier to win to begin with, it's not like 6k+ where junglers always get fucked over, where people abuse the weak lanes to the max extent etc, 3k is where offlane necro dominates because people are too afraid to gank him for some fucking reason
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GG go fuck any hard camp at lvl 1.