With aggro offlane heroes being popular in comp (doom+hero, slardar+hero, undying+hero, etc.), they can shut down an omni and continue snowballing making him fairly useless. Atleast that's just my thought
^So you build some Diffusals, and suddenly you can't fight because you spent 3k+ gold for that on a hero it's not an ideal item for. I've watched games with people building Diffusal against Omni, it works out in a way that they do indeed remove GA/Repel and it's all nice and dandy but they still lose fights because for some reason your spirit breaker and bristleback have a fucking diffusal, and the item does so little for them otherwise. It just feels too much of an investment to counter just somebody pressing R and repelling. I mean you can say BKB is a big investment too, but it serves many other purposes as well, and does not actually have limited charges.
Also by the time you get Diffusals, their cores can actually get BKBs most of the time as well, so you'd be using Diffusal to kill off supports which will or won't be detrimental to the fight depending on the lineup, what spells are already thrown out and how far ahead their carries are.
I just don't see 3k+ items with limited charges to be a good, reliable (as in, safe to use/purchase, make a strategy around) way to deal with Omni. If you're behind, even less so. The only way it'd be good is if people get too reliant on Omni and get really caught by the diffusals, and feed out streaks because they thought they'd be invincible, but we're talking about good players, who shouldn't be this brain dead. A good strategy still seems to be "fuck off and disengage", then GA goes down and you burst still repelled targets with physical damage anyway, because unlike them, having an omni, you have a support who can actually contribute by CC/Damage. Another good strategy seems to be just taking omni out of the fight immediately before the fight even starts, this is an ideal case scenario in case you're worried he'll fuck the fight up for you. It's like dazzle, but being out of position with weave on you and enemies is kind of just as bad as being around people who have guardian angel on them, except Dazzle's ult actually contributes to your sooner death.
The diffusal blade buff made most teams too scared of picking him probably, and also needs levels more than most supports (which is bad in pros where supports roam a lot to give all their cores solo xp, and if they don't get a successful gank they'll end up level 2-3 at like 10min, which is not very rare). Dazzle and Winter are safer if they want defensive supports. He's rarely picked up, so hard to make any good competitive stats about him for top tier teams, but in all competetive dota this patch he is 22-9 and frankfurt qualifiers he won 4 of 5 games.
Because its the most boring hero in the history of dota. Even treant is more exciting. Nobody even cares to make omni legit.
Also, ww, dazzle, aa. Also, his cast time/animation is obnoxious. Also, melee support, hence shitty positioning in teamfights.
But honestly, idk. I'm no pro. Omni is a still a strong momfucker.
So he's really 22-9? That's 31 games, which is really a tiny sample pool, but it's still saying something, that he's not dogshit when utilized correctly.
"Because its the most boring hero in the history of dota. Even treant is more exciting. Nobody even cares to make omni legit."
I honestly don't believe fun has anything to do with the competitive scene. Dollars are rolling in. You want to, and need to - WIN.
"Also, ww, dazzle, aa. Also, his cast time/animation is obnoxious. Also, melee support, hence shitty positioning in teamfights.
But honestly, idk. I'm no pro. Omni is a still a strong momfucker."
Yeah, I think it has to do a lot with how he positions. He's actually ridiculously squishy if he builds no tank, he can be taken out of the fight easily, he can't stand back like AA, he can't arctic burn the shit out of the fight like WW, he can't stand a bit remotely back like Dazzle, so I guess it's just that there are supports who can offer more with less, as Pomi said above, aside from having poor laning presence being a defensive melee support, he also really needs those levels to make it count. Compare that to other melee supports like Tusk who can set up a double kill with just level 2, omni is not going to have even remotely as much of an impact in the most crucial early game moments. And tusk can also save people using snowball.
Now that I think of it, I wonder why you'd pick omni when you can get tusk, dazzle, ww, etc, but I am not so sure what those other heroes' pro winrates are this patch. I've heard dazzle's actually sub 50% which would really surprise me, where can I see those things?
Datdota.com has stats for all professional games.
http://www.datdota.com/hero.php?q=Omniknight
Most of these omni games are from qualifiers or smaller tournaments though, so there's a lot of tier 3 teams in his match history.
http://www.dotabuff.com/esports/leagues/3671?date=&hero=dazzle®ion=&duration=
I think this could be what u r looking for?
cuz theres always a rubick silencer naga medusa or disruptor and invoker or even tide ultimate
if u ban on of them other team will know that ur thinking about omni cuz no one gonna ban heros like medusa for any other reason
@Kitrak
hi guys i said necrolyte ( old name of necrophos ) cuz i wantet to say im a old dota 2 player and i played dota 1 :XD
no offence but its a fact
so many counters from an organised team.
invoker tornado makes him pretty worthless for a start.
naga can song when he ultis.
and plenty of other options.
his early laning stage is pretty rubbish too.
I think being a melee support has a lot to do with it. Melee supports find it harder to Zone out enemies in lane. They can't deward any ward on cliffs without a quelling blade or tangos and they generally have to be closer to the fight which means they are more likely to die.
Omniknight also is kinda bad at ganking. His only "Disable" is his degen aura, which is useless for initiating a gank. His only nuke requires an ally to be right next to the enemy and his other two abilites are purely defensive.
Also Windranger is popular this patch and she is a good Diffusal carrier.
Diff blade might not be good on her but she is still a decent carrier for it. If someone on your team has to get a diff blade, WR is probably the one (unless you have an illusion based hero obviously.) Also she can use it to pop linken's which is occasionally bought as a counter to shackleshot.
1. Low presence on lane
2. No gankpotential
3. Unreliable Nuke
4. No lockdown
5. Long CD Ult
6. Countered by Diffu.
7. He needs to get close and personal for his aura. Thats not what you wanna do as a support in the later stages of the game.
Everything he does WW and Dazzle do kinda better and they have laning presence. The free BKB and Ult are stronk, but since you can counter it so ez with Diffu, you don't want to go omni early on. He could only be a viable pick as a suprisepick. Since you want generally give away Information about your Supports before you pick core, this is kinda odd. You can firstpick WW/Dazzle and get away with it. Those 2 always fit.
WW has an incredibly strong Ulti and can Save teammates, while he is quite annoying on lane. Dazzle can save mates, deal decent damage during the laning stage, has some kind of lockdown and his ult is awesome for clashes, sieges and roshan.
If you go early omni you beg for natural diffu carriers on enemy team, and the hero is useless. Since Diffu has no cd, 1 Diffu completly destroys his Ult and Repel.
Even without diffu a proteam just kites out omniult and goes in after it. With a shitton of glimmers, forces, daggers etc. its not a big deal. Pros play arround coldowns, pubs do not. Pros go for mobility items not only raw dps.
Thats why some things work in pubs but not in pro games.
Abbadon is hated, but he was picked with some success, since he can remove Grip and Slardarult. Even abbadon is better in progames than omni is.
The hero needs a rework. I do not see how buffing him would fix his problems. Make him ranged or increase auraradius.
Diffusal isn't really the answer vs omni - you can hardly use a charge everytime he repels someone. euls is more sustainable really - although obviously only works on GA not repel.
the natural purges are much better - satyr creep, tornado, shadow demon etc.
tornado is easily the best counter to guardian angel (closely followed by song).
Cus he doesn't have any cc or mobility and pros love cc and mobility. Dazzle has his poison thing, treant has his ult. Pros won't ever pick a passive hero without control like necro, abbadon. Top picks are always big controllers like es, venge, shit like that or mobile heroes like qop.
The real reason is fashion. Omniknight does not fit into the strategies that are currently fashionable. Omniknight and all other heroes could do well in certain strategies that could be played by pro teams right now and win plenty of games.
But no one happened to develop and practice a strat that contains omni-knight. It's just out of style. The strategies that are used are not tight, inflexible and refined. They are not definately THE BEST way to play dota. They are just what a handful of the top teams happened to practice recently. They can only play what they have prepared. They prepared what they did in response to what others prepared and the meta game evolves in little jumps here and there.
Soon someone will add a new hero into the mix, to much surprise and acclaim, and when it works the meta game will shift to accomidate it. Patches are not needed for this, all that is needed is for a great pro team to have a losing streak and instead of changing players just retool hero picks. It has happened many times before and will continue the same way.
Meanwhile Omni-knight is a very strong support hero who will win tons of pub games and would win pro games also except that he is out of style. He is an excellent counter pick to doom and tusk... and does in fact beat both them the vast majority of the time in pub games.
Repel cd does not overalap itself anyway so removing cd on diffusal does not counter repel any harder than it did before.
i bet u havent ever studied game theory and dont know how optimal strategies in repetitive games work
because what u right is one huge nonsense, even not taking into account shitty understanding of the hero itself
TripleSteal its obvious you don't know what half the words you write in even mean.
"game theory" cannot be applied to dota picks in a meanful way. The matrix of choices is far, far beyond the complexity of anything anyone has ever used "game theory" for.
u didnt understand lmao
suppose there is a repetitive game with N participants, and N here is rather high given the amount of teams involved in scrim system (and thats how all the said tier1 team practice). the game is symmetrical - all the teams have access to the same pick strategies. now suppose that everyone plays suboptimally, and there does exist a better response to everyone's choice. whats the chance that this strategy is not going to be played? 0. and it will spread really fast among other players, too. afair this kind of repetitive games is so etimes refered to as "evolutionary games", u can read in more legit sources 'bout it if u feel interested.
"game theory" cannot be applied to dota picks in a meanful way. The matrix of choices is far, far beyond the complexity of anything anyone has ever used "game theory" for"
when a bunch of years ago, when i didnt know that game theory will become my major field of study as well as my job, i came to a class of this science for the first time. i already had some general idea at that point thanks to insanely advanced micro classes, but still lacked of a lot of knowledge.
the first lecture was started with the discussion of the most classical case to which scientists usually apply game theory - chess. now compare the amount of possible strategies in chess and in dota for the pick stage, lol.
afair our professor used a comparison to the quantity of atoms in the universe, and - guess what? - there are less atoms than strategies in chess
Relentless....
1. You state simple things often in overcomplex words and too long textes. One thing they teach us during the lawclerkship everyday in writing decisions as a judge is: "Keep it simple." Now decisions and other law related texts are considered heavy read by most of the people. So we try to keep it simple. You go the opposite way. The only reason for this is:
You actually try to hide, that you have nothing to say, behind big words. Thats what Karl Popper called "Obstkurantismus". You may impress dumber people with this, but not the smarter ones.
2. You have often not the best ideas and still behave like you know it all. For someone who is barley 4k its kinda arrogant. If you are so great and know so much, why you sit in the trench? If you are smarter than everyone else and so gud at playing doto, why not at least mid 4k or 5k?
You argument above is just:
Maybe one pro team will utilize Omni one day, and then he will be part of the metagame. Thats just not a viable argument. Maybe we discovere some day, that there is a god.
But we do not know it now and we have a chunk of arguments, that he did not create the universe in 7 days 8.000 years ago.
The arguments against omni are stated above and you just don't even bother to prove them false. The only thing you say is:
"He counters doom and tusk."
Its impossible for your opponent to prove a negative statment. We can not disprove, that one day pros will pick up omni. But this does not prove, that omni is a viable pick.
He counters also Lina and Qop and every other spellcaster; but his repel is ez purged/euled/tornadoed off etc. Shitton of arguments why hero sucks dick. By not even trying to prove your statement and going into more general statments, that apply to everyhero, you just look like an arrogant prick.
You don't have arguments on your side.
You don't have the individual skill to just say: "Believe me, I am 6k and know it better," but still behave like that.
Relentless once again proves he doesn't fucking understand anything, but still manages to be a self-righteous retard. Good grief.
well kinda
my "normal" job is related to making researches in theory of contracts in the field of international trade; i work for one scientific institution here. besides that, im a part-timer TA on game theory course on my faculty.
The same forum trolls that always write about things they can't comprehend in the slightest sign up again to babble incoherently.
Triplesteal you probably are truly incapable of learning the difference between reality and nonsense without some traumatic life changing reset that allows you some clarity about what a naive, dupe you have become. This perfectly suits you to be a TA. You possess the critical thinking skills of a moron. You took an econ class and didn’t' understand it. In fact you understood it so badly you actually believed that you did get it? You have a clear case of Dunning-Kruger syndrome… which is why you are quite unlikely to understand my elucidation of precisely why what you wrote is inane.
There are vastly more possible moves in dota strategy than chess. Chess is so simple it is possible to assign values to moves so an unthinking computer program can choose between them. But even applying game theory to chess can only be done to tiny subsets and restricted cases in chess puzzles.
You idiot. You even admit that your professor told you chess is vastly too complex to put into a game theory matrix. YOU ADMIT IT. He told you it can’t be done, but you were too stupid to understand what he tried to teach you. Game theory is way of modeling how the players think to understand the underlying reasoning. It is not intended for and is NEVER used to calculate and predict practical realities because it cannot be used that way.
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Vladimir you have correctly identified that I know I am right. It is that mere fact that makes you feel angry. Congratulations on expressing your feelings and asserting contrary opinions. TripleSteal can’t seem to manage even that.
Omniknight does, as you point out counter the vast majority of spells in dota. In fact he counters almost all of them better than all other heroes in the game. There are particular cases where dazzle, shadow demon, chen, wyvern, Abaddon, or maybe a Pheonix with Aghs could be better. But Omni simply and directly give magic immunity and healing from the earliest part of the game. This makes him an extremely strong support in the lane. The idea that omni is weak in the lane is stupid – his only weakness is the lack of ranged harassing attacks… and heal harass of a melee farmer is much more powerful anyway. No one in Very High, much less pro dota gets to a lane, sees omni-knight is supporting and thinks “oh good I can dominate this lane because omni-knight won’t stun me”….
Some troll may lie about it on the forum… but what they are really thinking is along the lines of “crap – omniknight is here => zero chance to meaningfully harass much less get a kill” and also “I better be in position to retreat because I can’t counter stun or slow a magic immune hero”.
Repel is not EZ to remove when you need to do it. That’s bullshit. Witness 60% winrate in pubs all the way to 5k + dota games. How did you get so determined to be hateful that you feel compelled to deny such obvious facts? Omniknight is an excellent pub hero, arguably the very best. Pros are better are dealing with the problem of early free magic immunity, but they cannot simply say “oh we are pros, we know that diffusal blade can blah blah… No they are forced to take sub-optimal picks, lanes, and items to try to compensate for early, free magic, immunity.
I relate to you a simple truth that the pro Meta is largely about fashion, what a few teams happened to practice this month, and you become hysterical because you are so weak that you cannot get past your personal grievances and objectively attempt to understand an idea.
The favored heroes have changed often to something else that was not buffed significantly because one team simply tried out a new lineup and won. That new strategy could have been used at any time but it was not just because of fashion and happenstance. The current pro Meta is not the BEST. It’s just what people are doing. It’s not bad. It works fine. But there are plenty of plans that could beat it.
Right at this moment pro team captains have strategies already worked out that effectively counter the currently popular drafting choices. You will probably see some of them THIS WEEK. But they can’t practice all the heroes and all the combinations and have them all ready to play for every game. They will implement the next step in countering the currents picks when they think the time is critical for their team.
u dont have to be able to put ur strategies into a finite matrix to solve optimization problems.
pick stage has a very limited amount of outcomes.
chess is rather simple cz everything is finite, but yet there does not exist an absolute algorithm to play ideally, and the first AI consistently stronger than best chess players was created less than a decade ago.
game theory can be applied to find algorithms, and it is used in many cases IRL. government intervention into economy in the field of health insurance and pension is explained by game theory, election models are developed by the scientists in this field, the traffic organization is based on the solutions that are given by game theory, half of evolutionary biology is game theory, etc. etc. etc.
its not a theoretical mathematics aka find the eq strategy in some game that looks like
0;0 0;1
1;0 1;1
but again, why are u trying to argue about the field that u never studied urself? i dunno what ur education was, but u didnt have a basic game theory course in it, why do u think u know something there?
^just typical relentless' stuff, skip it
im in so far just because i like the topic, but i guess ill leave it soon, too
Why should I be angry?
Its simply not true, that omni is amazing in lane. Many common dualofflanes shut him down; also a trilane. He can't harrass; that might be a small thing for you. Actually its quite big. He can utilize purification only with a carry that goes toe to toe early on. Those (beside Gyro) are rare.
Also purging off his spells is quite easy and you can't deny that. Also you did not say 1 word about the pickorder. If you reveal omni early, you run into plenty of counters. Is the hero worth giving away so much information on cores; for a support?
Also no words on the easy kite and the long ass cool down.
The difference between 5k dota pub and pro dota is still HUGE. Take 5 5k pubplayers, put em together, let them pratice 6 month and they will still get buttfucked by a proteam.
I run refresher orb nearly every game on spectre and it works wonders. Because pubbies can't play on ultimate timings. They will just take so much time to go together, that ult and refresher are always ready. Refresher 2. item will barley work in a progame.
The idea of refresher spectre was discussed here, and you were one of the defenders. I liked the idea, tried it out and it works.
Does it work in pubs? Yes.
Would i recommend it in a progame? No.
Well I mean there is no best lineup in dota because every hero has strengths and weaknesses. So you can't use any theory to achieve the most optimal lineups, the answer is there isn't a most optimal lineup. The trick is banning the counters to yours, while countering your opponents, but the biggest thing behind the picks is comfort level. It's so obvious, every time pros play they pick a mid their mid laner likes. Like at TI with sumail always getting windranger and storm. It's not cus they were the very best heroes and best picks all the time, it's cus he has a comfort level with them. So in that regard relentless is correct, and it's the same thing I posted earlier without being all scientific about it:
Pros don't play omni cus they prefer other picks. Pros lean towards mobility and control heroes and away from passive or defensive heroes like omni who don't have "skill shots." That's it, done, simple explation.
By passive I don't mean passive play style necessarily and by skill shots, sure a well timed repel can be amazing, but it's not a skill shot in the way qop times her blinks. How many pros spam necro? Answer is none, hardly ever picked. He has two literally passive abilitys, one moderate aoe nuke and a huge nuke ult but zero cc, zero mobility. Lina meanwhile is super popular cus she has a stun and one of her passives makes her fast movement. Qop has blink, always a top picked hero. Why is chen so freakin popular in pros and never played in pubs? Control, skill shots, pros love that shit. Control three creeps all with stuns/nets? YES PLEASE pros say cus they think the skill shots are better than just spamming necro's nuke and tanking dmg.
^u also understood what i said incorrectly
u cant find a (non-existent) best pick, but you can be absolutely sure if there exists something that counters current meta, it will be picked in scrims and tournaments. the argument about a certain hero being not popular because pros are too lazy to play it and dont even try is not valid. they try everything all the time, and if it works, they keep practicing it - thats the point of scrims and trainings that all the tier1 teams use.
This thread is tl;dr but I feel obliged to add my input ;-)
For all intents and purposes there is no such thing as optimal play/picks in dota.
The fact that particular heroes are meta is simply a result of there being a limited amount of time to practice.
The equivalent is that it is easy to climb mmr if you spam a hero. Pros win tournaments by spamming strategies. They guess at what strat is op but I promise there are drafts out there that are unknown and broken.
@rocket
meta doesnt just come from someone's imagination - it is developed over a large set of scrim matches which are aimed to find what works now and what does not. i guess you underestimate the amount of time each tier1 team spends on this, and also they kinda unintentionally share experience with each other, as well as with less skilled teams who practice with them and give their input, too.
If he was a better hero for solo offlane or mid, we'd probably see him picked more, but repel is a shitty escape mechanism and any ranged hero can outplay him mid. I feel that a lot of the time, Dazzle does a lot of the things that Omni can do, but without all of his harsh drawbacks.
I disagree triple. There's no way there is sufficient scrimming between a handful of teams to fully explore the "draft" space.
this process involves hundreads of teams, and it pretty much covers all the ideas you can find logical reasoning for. they dont try everything, but they do it with ideas that can work at least on paper. omniknight is not that bad on paper, and i think i saw several games with him in this patch, but he just doesnt turn out to be very useful.
if u add 6k+ average pubs which are sometimes a good source of ideas for pro teams, you'll come to the same conclusion, i guess.
basically it is done in more or less this way:
everyone reads patch notes, and top players are rather good in theorycrafting (unlike relentless, kek). they go solo q and try different things, heroes, builds (btw im pretty sure alchemist octarine build takes its origin in pib dota, same as f.e. blink kunkka back in the days). the ones that seem to be efficient, survive and other people start copying them, then actual pro teams see it and try it in their games, unless they are already doing it.
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He has a tremendous winrate even in 5k+ pubs, his ult says fuck you to the whole armor reduction/physical damage meta, his cores can afford to build damage instead of a BKB, and purification is a bullshit nuke at lvl 4.
Is it his laning/early game/roaming? Obviously he's nowhere near as good a laner as Dazzle is, but looking at his winrate in 5k+ pubs it seems that in practice he more than makes up for it.
So, what gives, I'm dumb, can somebody explain this to me?