General Discussion

General DiscussionWhy is Omniknight not played more in competitive?

Why is Omniknight not played more in competitive? in General Discussion
SaintSinner

    Most simple thing is because there's already a dazzle which fills his role way better. Omni just lacks something to fill what he lacks. Being a melee hero support is also a thing. Positioning in fights matters aswell.

    Rocket

      I think you give the pros too much credit. For example, bloodseeker took an age to become a cancer in 6.84.

      Slardar only recently appeared on the pro scene is another example.

      Relentless

        Omni-knight was picked in 31 pro games in 6.85 and went 22-9 (70.9% winrate is significantly better than pub averages).

        In 6.84 omni was also picked in 31 pro games 18 wins, 13 losses only 58% winrate similar to pubs.

        All time Omni has been picked in 410 pro games 221 wins 189 losses 53.9% winrate, significantly lower than his all-time pub winrate of 57.08%. But still winning!

        Omni-knight is a strong pro game hero with a positive winrate in pro games. Lineups that work well with Omni-knight (particularly ones where core heroes want to dive into fights before they can farm bkb) are currently out-of-style. This does not mean that omni-knight cannot be picked or doesn't work at pro level because of diffusal blade.

        Pro are not "lazy" for not learning all possible heroes and all possible strategies. They are human. There are vastly more heroes, builds, and drafts possible than anyone could learn playing dota for their entire life. Pro's have time to prepare for world class level play a handful of heroes at a given time. Focusing on the few for their team, for current strats DOES make them weaker on the heros they are not practicing. They cannot pick any draft and hope to compete. They must pick what they have prepared to play.

        Dazzle and Omni do not fill the same role. Dazzle is best used to react defensively. Omni-knight is best used to dive into what would otherwise be extremely high risk attacks.

        Currently drafts that work well with omni-knight are out of style. Because of this pros are not prepared to play omni-knight - unless someone has been keeping an omni-knight in their pocket for the Major Finals. They cannot just pick any hero at any time. Because of their human limitations the vast majority of strategies that would work, cannot be picked in a particular draft.

        This comment was edited
        Dunning-Kruger-Doto

          Na man, tripple. You (2k mmr above relentless) and the pros (who play 60h + x and make a living out of doto), know shit about doto. Relentless, who can barley maintain High 3k/low 4k knows better. He does not even need to prove his arguments. From his position (smartest person in the room) we have to prove, that the pros are wrong AND all the arguments that we brought up are invalid. Cause the pros could be wrong.

          This guy is so dunning kruger.

          So put some effort in it -and do not make it tl;dr- to disprove these:

          1. Low presence on lane

          2. No gankpotential

          3. Unreliable Nuke

          4. No lockdown

          5. Long CD Ult

          6. Countered by Diffu/Euls/Tornado

          7. He needs to get close and personal for his aura. Thats not what you wanna do as a support in the later stages of the game.

          8. Difficult to pick, without getting countered hard (wich can't happen with WW/Dazzle so much)

          9. Easy to kite his ult, unless they want to run into your base.

          TripleSteal-

            ^^the omni winrates are unreliable, same as f.e. my insanely high winrate for blink dagger on timbersaw, which is not because this item is so good, but mainly due to the fact that i purchase it only when we are far ahead. spurious correlation.

            omniknight can be purchased in lineups which he fits perfectly only, or purchased by stronger teams who do not consider their opponent to be a threat and are pretty sure they can win with Io-carry, so they just pick shit for fun or experiment with drafts.

            im not sure about the point of pro players being not able to play any hero at any point of time is valid - at certain point after i reached 5k i found out i can play ~90% of heroes which I never played on an okish level before, just because I "feel" them and know what I should do at any exact moment thanks to the large experience of playing with and against them. Of course there are certain exceptions which require specific skills - meepo, brood, tinker; as well as a small but observable difference in efficiency between ur average hero and ur signature, but pros do not always pick their signature heroes as u can see; both because this difference is not that high in most cases , which makes it less important than some draft synergies, and because these signatures are getting banned pretty often.

            This comment was edited
            Dunning-Kruger-Doto

              You are so muhc into statistics, but do not take into account, how big the samplesize is and who ran it against who. Dark seer sits at 45% winrate in Frankfurt. Now give universe dark seer and see how he buttfucks the enemy. The tournament samplesize also takes the qualifiers into account. Tier 3 teams running omni etc.

              So that 58% winrate says nothing about the highest lvl doto. The lvl we talk about. The eg, secret stuff.

              Check this out relentless:

              Sniper has 100% winrate and 23.0 KDA @ Frankfurt. Proooshieet.

              https://www.dotabuff.com/esports/leagues/3671/heroes

              This comment was edited
              Relentless

                It's clear from your post you don't understand the reality of how omni-knight can be and is played. The hero you describe would lose games. Omniknight wins games at every level from sub 2k MMR up to and including pro games. Are you ignorant of this fact?

                1) easily controls almost any lane

                2) unstoppable gank potential

                3) massive pure dmg nuke that is easy to hit at pro level with cordination

                4) slows through bkb, infinite duration

                5) long cd ult (wow you got one right!)

                6) not countered by euls - not effectively countered by diffusal

                7) when you are magic immune and have 1000 armor how afraid are you to get close?

                8) omni-knight is easy to pick - goes well with all concievable drafts, is strong against all drafts. Hence 54% all-time pro winrate. 10th best of ALL HEROES.

                9) easy to kite except for the most important times? really that's your idea of weakness... people could run away? really?

                You analyse omni as if dota is a series of 1 v 1 pvps. Omni is a hero that makes other heroes invicible. He works well with any hero you might like to be invicible. How is that a limited draft?

                All you manage to prove is that you are personally unaware of the FACT of omni-knights success at all levels of dota and the reasons why and how he does so well.

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                TripleSteal-

                  I'm gay.

                  Dunning-Kruger-Doto

                    Ok, I give up. You are borderlineclose dumb.

                    1) Control lane as melee. Kappa.

                    2) Gank with 1 nuke, no stun, and shitty slow aura. Kappa.

                    3)Massive nuke, if someone goes close and personal. Way better than dazzle nuke or ww (who also gets flying vision)

                    4)Slow if you stand next to someone. Kappa.

                    5)Euls counters ult.

                    6) 1 Tornado and boom, everything gone.

                    7) Pick omni, enemy goes invoker: Boom Ulti useless. On top you can go diffucarrieres.

                    You just ignore that Omni is NOT viable in the highest lvl games. All your fancy statistics apply only if you take qualifiers into account; groupstages (non factor omni), eleminationmatches (non factor omni).

                    And now:

                    If you are so clever and smart (smarter than pros), why are you so bad at dota?

                    Are you only one handed?

                    You must be one of the students/scholars, who everyone made fun off, cause they are only talking borderline dumb nonsense, but not awere of their own dumbness. Dunning Kruger on its finest. 3k trashpubby, who barley maintains his high 3k, but able to lecture EVERYONE.

                    Btw. Refresher orb has 78% winrate on am, on all lvls of pubs. Must be gud shit. Riki has overall great winrate (VHS 55%). Must be gud shiet.

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                    Dire Wolf

                      Wow I was started to lean towards your side relentless and then you post that garbage. You vastly overestimate omnis abilities. He is a poor lane support. Other support shit all over him in lane. Yes his heal is strong so you dodge it, his magic immune is not invincible. His ganking is hardly unlimited as he has no stuns. He wins a lot in pubs cus pubs revolve a lot around team fighting and he's got that big ult.

                      I was just disagreeing with triple I don't think all the counters to meta have been fleshed out, but enough have. If omni was clearly strong they'd find a fit for him but he's borderline so why bother? I mean I don't think qop is that strong but she's insanely popular pro pick cus of their comfort level with her.

                      TripleSteal-

                        @dire wolf
                        i think everything was tried in high mmr pub dota, and if it was efficient, then more people would use it in pub, and pros would notice it sooner or later, and then try to adjust it to their games.

                        Relentless

                          It is really quite easy to understand if you watch pro dota for any period of time longer than 6 months that there are always strats that are very effective, but not used. There are always lots of heroes that could be used that are not.

                          You know that this is true when you see the changes that happen without a patch. The rules are all the same as before, only someone chose a different option. They could have picked differently before, but they did not. Why? It's just because they were not ready to do it.

                          A new strat cannot win in a pro game on a whim, it has to be practiced. It doesn't matter how good a plan is, pro dota is about execution first and last. If you are not ready to play your strat against the best in the world, then it will fail. Dota 2 is well balanced. The advantages from picks are small - lots of very different plans can work. Execution of those plans is what decides who wins most games. Occasionally there is a true out-draft win.

                          Is everyone going for early team-fight and push strats? Farming 4 protect 1 could still beat it on execution. Is everyone going split push? Aggressive ganking can still win with better execution. The advantages of the various plans are small, execution wins games.

                          Omni-knight is a winning pro game hero. He wins for the same reason as in pubs - early, free magic immunity is extremely hard to stop. A snowballing hero that cannot be disabled without certain ultimate's... a carry who can be reactively un-stunned from Fiend's Grip, Primal Roar, or a hex - these are insurmountable advantages in many situations that commonly occur in dota games.

                          Forum trolls look at a hero with nearly the highest winrate at every MMR level and in pro games and refuse to see the obvious truth that Omni-knight is very strong purely because they are disagreeable and desperately want to disagree with me no matter how stupid it makes them look.

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                          Taco

                            Omni picker here, he is good only to keep the pubstomp up. Aura is worthless because, sometime i pick stats instead. I think it should be reworked in something that slows for a higher aura over time like Shiva or something but it would suck balls anyway.

                            I used to pick omni with huskar, but in this meta, huskar is realy vulnerable to the physical Damage. Now i pick him very rarely and this is a bad thing even Storm now it's out of the meta, ES it's a lot picked, Diffusal can be build in very low quanitity of heroes that can be countered with teamwork.
                            You are dedicate healer and buffer, since you have no stun and not a realy good reason to stay in lane.
                            Actualy i pick it if my friend pick Alchemist to snowball enemy team because actualy bkb+heal+immunity+radiance, you can win teamfight alone, instead i stay in the jungle only to stack his farm and soon as possible he will finish his farm and gift me an aghanim and right in time i will finish my refresh globe.

                            Ez game, Ez life.

                            Frankie Ballerina, 3k mmr scrub 70% wr Omni picker.

                            braindead
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                              Soultrap

                                I don't think that Omniknight needs lots of practice. All his skills are plain simple.

                                Probably, Slark or Magnus are best partners for Omni, because they provide easy setup for pure damage nuke. Any pro team can execute something like this with ease.

                                smol brain

                                  Blink dagger solved many problems but with 0 cd diffusal he's really fucked needs rework. Farm blink noob.

                                  Dire Wolf

                                    did omni pay you to be a spokesperson or something? You vastly overestimate his impact outside of team fights. Lanes too important in pro play, omni is a weak laner to everyone here except you apparently.

                                    jo~

                                      He's good 5th pick imo

                                      Soultrap

                                        Omni is good at zoning solo offlaner, but he has to play passively against duo or triple.

                                        jo~

                                          This hero belongs to the offline imo

                                          braindead
                                            This comment was removed by a moderator
                                            smol brain

                                              @Dire Wolf
                                              Omni is a decent zoning offlane support, there are better ones for sure but Omni is viable after which you also get him in team fights. Meh, would you want a lich to tp next to you or an Omni?

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                                              Rocket

                                                its just a lack of imagination on your part to think that pros and ultra-high pub games find all the best strategies or that pros can pick up any hero and play it at a competitive level. another example - CDEC in the TI grand final for example - couldn't play the most broken hero from the patch.

                                                it is completely analagous to pub players being better on some heroes than others - pro teams are better at some strategies than other strategies and the strats/drafts they think will perform best and be possible to play the most often are the ones they practice.

                                                the exception is having a couple of pocket strats (which could well include omni) for desperate situations.

                                                if you were right then there wouldn't be the concept of the "respect ban"

                                                plz do

                                                  Let's put it like this. Omni is a good sparing partner (pubs) but not so awesome when it comes down to it (pros).
                                                  Damn, I like them short comments and short sentences. I'll never be able to discuss w triple or relentless.

                                                  TripleSteal-

                                                    @hush
                                                    that was the most offensive comment i saw on dbuff so far, u punkass fatherfucker

                                                    plz do

                                                      Holy shit. It's time for some Russian flaming! Get them bleats and cykas out! The fatherfucker hushhush is gonna splatter ur anus so hard, u have never been so rektumed in ur life.

                                                      TripleSteal-

                                                        @hush

                                                        plz do

                                                          Cannot lol right now, cuz I'm sitting in a bus and it would be awkward. But I lol'd deep down inside and wished I was gay so I could be gay together w triple, my one true love. (And Yoshimoto,too and benao and hot salsa and arin and everyone)

                                                          TripleSteal-

                                                            sometimes im wondering why the dotabuff icon is red D instead of rainbow D

                                                            Soultrap

                                                              Awww, you guys are so cute...

                                                              Riguma Borusu

                                                                Ah noice, fa66ots be gay and shit.

                                                                Anyway, thank you guys for the comments (except Talentless), I haven't actually thought about specific usage of omni as some of you've suggested, I've always thought of him as a teamfighter, never so much as a good push-buffer.

                                                                "im sure this works for razor/sf/ta/windranger also. especially ta, ta with omni is awesome"

                                                                Gonna try this shit, should work super well in Retard Skill.

                                                                Dunning-Kruger-Doto

                                                                  I like this name. Talentless sounds gud.

                                                                  This comment was edited
                                                                  lm ao

                                                                    Dank memes

                                                                    average kebab enjoyer

                                                                      Hey, since Game Theory has been discussed and i was wondering, could anyone (maybe Tripple) give some interested scrubs a few good tips on literature on the topic? I've seen some generic books in the library on campus, but they all seem rather thick and not very easy to get into . Thanks in advance. Also, y u heff to be so mean to Relentless? He is providing a very important service to bitches like me surfing around when bored. Pls don't stop the long ass posts, dude!

                                                                      Dunning-Kruger-Doto

                                                                        Do not listen to talentless. Why would you listen to someone with down syndrome, who can't even maintain 4k. He is a 3k player giving 6k players lectures. Tripple provides good adivce here, havoc did (hes not that active anymore), and some others. Relentless just get bashed for every post he makes.

                                                                        Option 1): He posts some utter bullshit, disagreeing with every competent player and poster.

                                                                        Option 2): He tells you the story of how his internet was bad and how he is gud.

                                                                        Option 3): He makes some lame-ass long posts with "statistics" that include 3 players (and him) and 25 games (aka invalid statistics).

                                                                        This comment was edited
                                                                        TripleSteal-

                                                                          @=_=
                                                                          osborne (not ozzy!) introduction to game theory - very easy to understand, probably one of the best inteoductory textbooks in game theory so far
                                                                          u can also try Gibbons, or Myerson, or another book by osborne titled A Course in Game Theory, if u want to go deeper.

                                                                          what are u studying?

                                                                          mooles mun

                                                                            "but again, why are u trying to argue about the field that u never studied urself? i dunno what ur education was, but u didnt have a basic game theory course in it, why do u think u know something there?"
                                                                            "government intervention into economy in the field of health insurance and pension is explained by game theory, election models are developed by the scientists in this field, the traffic organization is based on the solutions that are given by game theory, half of evolutionary biology is game theory, etc. etc. etc. "

                                                                            triplesteal is like the new reincarnation of ken m.

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                                                                            TripleSteal-

                                                                              its internets, u would never know whether i am a reicarnation of ken m, or actually ken m myself

                                                                              who is ken m btw?

                                                                              WonderWaiter

                                                                                Fuck this hero

                                                                                Mekarazium
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