General DiscussionWhat do you think of this game?

Your only fault seems to be farming too much and that you didn't snowball even a bit. Maybe that's why they were trolling you( for not helping at early-mid teamfights)

But I actually contributed more than CM/Lion, and I would say I did considerably better than clock. Unless you would like a 2-10-12 clock, IDC.

But really, add up the numbers. I didn't get the kills, Lion uses Finger for last hits. I don't generally care anyways, I end up averaging 4-7 kda.

Well, I would consider bfury/daedalus/deso decent for the 25 minute mark.... but I guess you can do better?

Other than me doing more in fights than cm/lion (albeit they did do SOME warding)
And lion last hitting for kills

What else do you have for contribution other than vague insults that are completely pointless?

edit:

just took a look at your stats... you're either a troll or the 49% win rate is lying.

Seems to be your fault completely. You let a Spectre farm up to an unstoppable point, and you never left your lane to use any of your spells.

Can I get an opinion from someone in a higher bracket....

I half hp'd spectre with one fist. My team pissed me off to the point where 3 of us were arguing/typing and not bothering to defend. We could've won if they had just stayed uphill and stuck as 5 rather than groups of 2 - 3 against that type of line-up.

I actually did leave my lane and I made efficient use of my spells.

Please lay out probable scenarios in which it would be effective for me to show myself on that map/make myself more vulnerable against NP/AA/SPEC/Bane/Mirana

All he has to do is sleep and I'm done.
Time and time again I hear this argument that ember should be played aggresively, that ember is a shitty overrated hero, that ember has a shitty winrate now. Yet my win rate is considerably higher... Care to answer why?

Sirius lee take a look back at what he said Vasile said. He didn't insult you and gave you actual feedback, which is what you asked for. He offered a suggestion, maybe it's not what actually happened, as you just explained, but there's no need to be a dick about it

@Sirius Lee

Your claim: "Well, I would consider bfury/daedalus/deso decent for the 25 minute mark.... but I guess you can do better?"

You may want to stop lying... after all, you linked the match, and we can watch it. Your ACTUAL items/gold:

694 gold
battlefury
desolator
TP scroll
brown boots
quelling blade
stout shield

Their draft had a stronger late game.
You didn't secure early/mid game and hence lost.

^exactly. IF ure looking for a specific answer that you want to hear, then go ask the mirror. Anyway.. its about time someone say no one gives a damn. @sampson @blunt etc.

Let me put it this way: they have spectre and NP which can't defend against all the crazy shit you have, and at 30 minutes, they still have a tier one up. You needed to push towers + control the map. Still watching this a bit. From 25 minutes to 30 minutes, you are stacking ancients and doing ancients. Good job! Meanwhile, Spectre has finished his radiance and reaver. Doom is impending.

@ 31 minutes, your team uses their aegis to move into the jungle, a decent aggressive action... you're still sitting at ancients/bottom, doing nothing at all. Due to your absence in that fight, 2 of your teammates die and none of them do. Looks like the eventual loss is more and more apparent.

I'm not being a dick, I'm just laying out the facts.

I want an opinion from someone who actually does well[.b] rather than someone who thinks they can do well but end up performing poorly.

E. So "it's not what actually happened, as I explained", and well, there's no need to a be a dick. Just pretend I'm a mirror image of whatever I'm presented with.

Their draft had a stronger late game.
You didn't secure early/mid game and hence lost. (You = your team, you yourself had to farm and KS as much as possible)

It was not entirely your fault. Even without getting all the kill your GPM was the highest on the dire side.
Some games are simply impossible to win, yet by playing good you maximize your chances.

Consider on getting early midas next time you carry. (Most games in your bracket seem to average 40 minutes)

Take advantage of that timing.

@ sirius
Let me put it this way: they have spectre and NP which can't defend against all the crazy shit you have, and at 30 minutes, they still have a tier one up. You needed to push towers + control the map. Still watching this a bit. From 25 minutes to 30 minutes, you are stacking ancients and doing ancients. Good job! Meanwhile, Spectre has finished his radiance and reaver. Doom is impending.

@ 31 minutes, your team uses their aegis to move into the jungle, a decent aggressive action... you're still sitting at ancients/bottom, doing nothing at all. Due to your absence in that fight, 2 of your teammates die and none of them do. Looks like the eventual loss is more and more apparent.

Wasn't saying that about vandal, you were just insulting Vasile because you took his point as an insult, when all he said was "farming too much and didn't snowball". Therefore he didn't insult you, and you decide to get personal by insulting his stats

Well yeah, i have 49% winrate just because half of my games are played for fun with my friends( e.g. Picking 5 hard carries and going all 5 mid, or get 5 ppl jungle, rocket team,etc.), but on all my most played heroes I play for real, and win most of the matches.
And anyhow, it was my opinion, no need to flame,by seeing your game impact I asumed you went afk farming and let Spectre do the same thing, probably while your team wanted to go 5men. You asked for feedback, I gave you a sincere one.

From 31 to 33 minutes, you don't hit a single creep. You literally run back and forth back and forth. You're not ganking, you're not moving around the map, you're not farming, you're literally doing nothing. This is embarrassing. I'd approximate your MMR at about 3700.

But how does their draft have a stronger late game? Please pan out the scenario in which this would work.

I have yet to lose a game where my team actually listens to me when I play snowball-type heroes like ember/TB.

I wasn't lying. The game didn't capture maelstrom as my last item since I couldn't bother going to the secret shop, else I'd be dead.
I also had 1500 gold from a wave of creeps, but remember, when you die you lose gold.

But wait, what did I expect? A sub-par player cropping part of the picture and telling the story how it is? Nice.

Yes, at the 25 minute mark I told you we were all arguing. Do you not read? Do you need me to perform lasik?

How would they not be able to defend? An ult from NP/Spec will bring supports down to half HP outside of their ally zone due to desolate from spec, and all Mirana/Bane would have to do is obtain vision of me and aim me as their first priority target.

So again, please add up the numbers, read the lines again and don't make the same mistake twice.

edit:

@ Vandal

Before I have to slam my head against my desk, please read.

And I said 'your only fault seems to be that...."
That translates to "you have no fault other then..."

LOL 33 minutes, your team goes and gets wiped mid again. Your location: hard camp in the thick of your jungle WITH THE AEGIS. First creepo struck in 2 minutes, second time you've let your team down.

@Sirius

It looks like YOU were arguing with THEM. They had a fairly coherent plan of attack: Get kills as 5. You had a retarded one that lost the game. And you can't count gold you lost. You either have a crit or you don't, rofl. "Under the theoretical situation where I never die, I'd have 2 divine rapiers by now." LOL

@vasile

if you look at my matches, (i'm not sure if dotabuff plus has these options)

ive played a lot of games with a friend whos at 2.7k mmr

and I probably don't do as many "for fun games", but a good chunk of them are in there.

How do you come to conclusion of game impact based off of nothing? Assumptions never work. Thinking the same strategy will always work when there are different variables at hand will never work.

"How would they not be able to defend? An ult from NP/Spec will bring supports down to half HP outside of their ally zone due to desolate from spec, and all Mirana/Bane would have to do is obtain vision of me and aim me as their first priority target."

1.) Team should buy a mek. Your team needed to gear toward early pushing, not jacking off. Mek = undoes NP ult.
2.) Stand together. Spectre ult does zero damage if her desolate is not active.

Everyone here, i can guarantee after seeing your 3.7k MMR play, has much higher rating than you. Listen to the advice people keep repeating to you and stop trying to blame your supports. Supports have bad scores, that's what they fucking do. You played a 1 or 2 position and failed.

*I don't*

snowball heroes? Do you even know what that means...

Besides, there is no way in hell that you can stop spectre as ember past a certain time. No way. Im sorry.

From what I can ascertain, even though the kill difference is only 3 your teams supports are ridiculously underfarmed (not your fault) CM Midas is probably bad idea.

Don't know if Lion actually stole kills with ultimate, will check later when I can watch replay

I think what eventually happened regarding your own choices, as has been stated before, is that you spent a huge amount of time farming when your team was making pushes (although ill advised). Obviously you can't control what your team does but even as the 1 or 2 position you shouldn't order your teammates around based on the fact that you are the carry and they are supports (again, don't know if you ordered them around or not, that was just advice)

You seem to have geared for the late game against NP, Mirana and Spectre, whereas your teams only carries were SS and yourself. Against a 3 core lineup such as this you HAVE to capitalise on the early game, otherwise they will just out farm you and beat you. Clearly your supports don't have the best scores, no ones blaming you for that, but this could have potentially been mitigated by your team going for more early game effectiveness rather than the late game build that you followed

@ Vandal

You're obviously half blind, you're rambling on about something that wasn't even stated.

I'm generally pretty quiet unless the other person is excessively disturbing.

No, they went as 3 after Roshan and flamed = argument = lose game.

Actually I can count gold lost because I died typing while inside my base. I'm only referring to it because you're trying to state that my lack of leftover gold after having quit the game after the 25 minute mark had something to do with the loss.

I had crit/daed/deso/bfury at 25 min approx, before end game I had maelstrom added.

So you've misread about 3 times and continue to skewer facts :/ trollin

Vandal you're probably at a lower MMR than me, and once I get people that are roughly around the same skill level I would presume the gap would increase.

I wasn't blaming them for not supporting, I was blaming them for flaming me and for pushing aggressively against a team that can wipe us out if we're caught in the open.

Just because person = support =/= support being exempted from having a good KdA(ssists).

Just like the fact that I had 0-1-9 for the time being because I wasn't the one getting the kills, yet the contribution cannot be measured. You just assume things... ass u me.

Why's that?
Why can no one lay out a plausible scenario where spectre could've beaten me?

You can't capitalize early game as carry, with late game builds already in motion. You're just fighting against the tide at that point.

Well that's what I was saying, why would you consider going late game with your lineup?

Edit: if you changed your skill build you would have had a much easier early game and earlier killing potential, maxing W first is almost never recommended on Ember because it's only really effective once you have the damage items to back it up. Only getting one level of searing chains makes you lose out on so much damage, max at level 3 you have a 3 second disable AND 300 damage, and your flame guards damage is just dirty in early game, combine the two and you are extremely difficult to nuke down, as well as giving you much needed early game presence

Mute buttom is there for something man

i think ur a little bitch and this game without fags like u would be a better place

get back to lol and do favour for the community u can cry all u want there i heard they even ban ppls for saying "lol "ez" and stuff like that

No, no I'm not difficult to nuke down at all. I'd have to sacrifice a ton of damage output and go skadi/linken's or something like that to even stay alive.

I'm actually really easy to nuke down, here's how.

Nightmare.
End of story.

It just sets up my inevitable death.

Lvl 4 sleight of fist can take off 1/4th-1/5th of an average support's hp, and that's keeping yourself at a safe distance.

Going aggro and exposing yourself with lack of escape....
Against line-ups that can take you out as long as they get one disable off you?

Mute button doesn't work for chatbox :/

@ i hate this game

that's too bad. I'm here and there's absolute jack shit you can do about it sonny boy

i don't need to do anything ur a trashcan

since i dont play 3k mmr matches i think im safe from players like u

mhm "I HATE THIS GAME"

I'm a mirror image of you.

Sirius, you were playing as if you were absolutely terrified of dying when you had aegis. I'm not sure what else there is to say.

I'm not sure if you're blind or mentally handicapped...

After the 25 minute mark, I literally quit.

Why wasn't I attacking creeps or why was I neutraling? I was responding to their persistent flames and decided this game wasn't worth carrying. Like you've done, I simply asked them to apologize but they refused.

I have moments where I feel I have the right to decide when and where I draw the line but they are few and far between.

If I have to tell you another time... I think this is the 5th time I've said that after 25 minutes, no one was trying anymore.

#speechless

Your team was still trying, they were making coordinated movements. You were sitting there farming ancients.

The fact that I intentionally threw one game out of 3000 does not make me the same type of person you are. I'd never throw just because my teammates have a vaguely different idea of how a game of dota should be played or even if they flame me. I don't even throw if my team is throwing. That one time I threw was an anomaly - I was grouchy, I almost solo killed the middle, and the mid player actually said I was bad for it. The absurdity was through the roof considering he was last hitting about 1 second's walk away from our battle and the guy got away with 1 hit left (He was literally on the river's cliff as I was killing their mid on the other cliff). All in all, it was still wrong for me to throw, but those were the circumstances that caused it.

Dude, if you are playing with this kind of assholes in your team they deserve to lose, so whatever dont feel bad about it

1. You need MKB instead of desolator since cleave is already nullify defense
2. CM build midas vs lineup that are is very deadly late game (NP split push, Aghanim AA, and 5 slot spectre)
3. Clockwerk feed and has bad winrate
4. Storm need bloodstone instead of vyse as 2nd item to tank against ulti combo
5. Your team have no pusher hero and very little tower damage
6. Even after aghanim boost, Lion still prefer to build hood + ultimate orb

I can't say i mind someone farming but Ember has such a good early game prescence that you should be doing something early rather than just waiting for the end game.

Spectre will pretty much outcarry most people if it goes late enough so killing him early is always a good idea.

Between all of you, you had like no tower damage, perhaps you should have focused on pushing towers rather than farming 24/7?

I am not having a go but their team had much better late game potential so you should have snowballed correctly rather than only farming

Hey on the bright side though, i won this game - http://dotabuff.com/matches/556001218

the Death Prophet was telling me at 45 minutes that my next item should be Radiance...i literally facepalmed so hard so be grateful you dont get players like that

This was my first proper Ember game (I don't count my actually first as we had an intentional feeder in my first game)
http://dotabuff.com/matches/552704119

I took the midlane, with Ursa jungle, gyro top with Phoenix and omniknight solo offlane (weird lane setup I know)

By levelling Q and E over W it increases your dps AND survivability in the early game by a huge margin, 500 EHP against spells is nothing to be taken lightly, as well as 60 damage a second in burn damage. This absolutely melted the squishy characters on the other team and IMO give more USEFUL dps early on than a maxed W

This is what I was talking about by giving you early killing power, I skipped battlefury and went drums -> desolator, which gave me much more damage early on that was useful, the benefits of battlefury on ES are debatable considering the enemies have to be in a ridiculously tight bunch to have any sort of effect, whereas deso gives guaranteed armour reduction on every target

But that's only a general assumption.

Like i said, that line-up needs 1 disable and I'm out for the count for the type of hero I'm playing.

Ember needs to play extremely safe against a better aggressive team, hence why most embers lose.

For instance:

http://dotabuff.com/matches/556648135

My team listened to exactly what I said and we won.

I ended up killing meepo in one fist with both of us at 5/6 slots.
We made them come uphill the entire game, we warded around our base perimeter and I left remnant in efficient places so that I could cover more map ground/pretty much use 2-3 tps by the time someone can only use 1.
I ended up doing 66.2k hero damage.

There's been plenty a time where someone judges my actions only to find out that they do worse on an average basis.

Okay, you go ember, you do that build.
I'll go ember, I'll do my build.

Deso is great if you can just skip to it, but Bfury is more affordable in smaller gold chunks and increases farm > > > deso
I'll take the extra 8/8/8 stats, lvl 1 chain, 4 sleight and 4 shield any day.

Vandal... oh god the hypocrisy is strong with you.

They were not still trying. They were arguing with me and typing with me which is why some of us were standing around.
Here's one thing you don't do, especially when your carry/support/mid/w/e is your ONLY chance of winning.
Do not, flame. If you are, be reasonable. Two of these guys were on mic and complaining extensively so I gave them what they wanted.

Please, 3000 games, don't be a drama queen.
What I mean by "intentionally throw", is, stop putting in effort =/= massing couriers/feeding.

"The fact that I intentionally threw one game out of 3000 does not make me the same type of person you are. I'd never throw just because my teammates have a vaguely different idea of how a game of dota should be played or even if they flame me. I don't even throw if my team is throwing. "

I'm going to laugh at the second sentence.

Don't ask us to judge you if you're going to pull the "well I do better than you anyway hurr durr" card. I gave you a view, which you asked for by creation of this thread. Don't dismiss my opinion as wrong because you like a better build.

They were trying. You weren't. You had an advantage and refused to push it or cooperate with your team because you deemed that their views were wrong and decided to farm more against a team that had a better late game.

Vandal is right here. In fact, he could be 1k rated and his points are still perfectly valid. You asked what others think of that game, and he made an objective statement. Sure, you tell your team that you play passive in advance. That's a stupid thing to do when you have an item advantage and the opponents can't handle fights.

Well I don't dismiss any opinions, just the ones that have no merit.

Okay it's not wrong, "it's different".

Like 1+1=/= 2 is not wrong, 1+1=3 is just... different.

I'm gonna pull out the "I'm better than you card", when vague assumptive references are made towards me which contribute more reasons for my condescending behavior.

The thing is that Vandal has made plenty of objective points to which you have made no logical counter-argument. Plenty of times you could have simply taken a fight and won a game. But you didn't and played absurdly passively. Flaming him or insinuating that he's a worse player than you doesn't change anything. Does a better player coming in and telling you the same thing make it more valid?

I don't care if your teammates flame you or whatever. The fact stands that your game was winnable, but your actions directly prevented that from happening. That has to be your fault, no matter how you want to look at it. Blame it on your attitude, blame it on your teammates whatever. It is still your fault.

@ zenoth

how can you tell?

Do you see our team chat/speak? If you can then I'd highly doubt you'd say so.

No... see if you're at 1k or 2k or below someone and trying to give advice that you think you know, yet you can't back it up, well then that's just called bullshit :/

It's like me telling someone who has been in their profession for 5+ years, who gets paid well, how to do his job. Not. Going. To. Happen.

I mean, if you can prove me wrong, by all means do it, until that point.... well good luck convincing me.

Again the whole their team has better late game than our team.

Did you not see or read? How is it possible that I expend 50 mana to damage their entire team for 1/2hp minimum, yet their late game is better than mine? LOL

I'm telling from the way you played alone. I don't care about the team chat or speak. Your actions in game were terrible. You had plenty of chances to win.

This ain't bullshit, if a smoker tells you smoking is bad just because he may be a hypocrite doesn't mean his point is any less valid.

And so what if your SoF can take out half their hp in one hit? One haunt from Spectre and your supports are half down, NP's ulti to clean up and it's just you against the rest of their team. Late game is not about 1v1 or raw damage. It is a combination of pushing, team fights and ganks, and your opponent's team fares better late than yours.

So, I'm 5.5k rated. By your logic my point should be more valid than yours. But my rating isn't even relevant here. I don't see the need to bring up anybody's rating when trying to discuss something logical. What we are talking about is what you did in that game, and the point stands that you could have played a lot better. You didn't. You can blame your teammates for flaming and demoralizing you, you can point fingers for all I care. It doesn't change anything.

You know, I've seen Vandal playing against a team with Merlini in it. I'm not sure what the exact numbers are, but I think that requires you to at least be 5k ranked to encounter him. So, you were saying you wanted the opinion of someone with a high MMR?

Also, Zenoth up there is 5k as well...there you have it, 2 people with legit high MMR trying to point out what you did wrong. Wish conceded.

the problem here is with you sirius, you think you're always right, i've watched your match through the whole way, you literally dont leave mid lane to gank for around 17 minutes, in which you gank once. after that you proceed to spend another 7 minutes just sitting around farming ancients, rather than pushing lanes (in which you are the best in your team composition at doing) and getting involved in fights, causing many of your fights to be held 4 vs 5. you get involved in a fight 23 minutes in which you make a 0-4 exchange, AND THEN CARRY ON FARMING WITHOUT PUSHING. you seem to play ember thinking that you win solely by using your w and hope you crit their carry, whereas if you'd gotten your lazy farming ass out of that lane earlier and ganked, your lead that you held would have expanded, and you would have quite easily won. even the other team acknowledged that you were playing too defensively. spectre is a great carry for punishing defensiveness because she can just sit back and farm her key items, and she needs them more than you. there was a reason for your team flaming you, because you were making the wrong decisions for the playstyle you needed. even in the game you say "look at the stats and see if you're better" , which makes you look like a complete twat, considering storm is getting involved and is 10-3-5, and you're 2-1-9.

here's the thing. when literally everyone in the game, including the enemy team, is complaining about you it's likely that you're the problem