I don't think you were winning that game no matter what. It sounds like you wanted to play defensive and try to wipe them at your rax. Fat chance of that actually working, their team has a 500gpm advantage. Maybe you could've pushed harder early but with supports underfarmed and feeding and no one buying mek you probably would've died. Your team did almost no tower dmg and was behind in farm and had less carry late. Hard to win any games like that.
I don't really like the draft that much. Your team has no tower dmg, whether it's pushers or right clickers, 3 ints vs spectre, no tank although I guess that's supposed to be clock, two mid heroes in storm and ember.
Okay, you try ganking a global team with Mirana Bane and then tell me how that oh-so plausible scenario is right.
I've watched good players, I've seen good players, I've met good players.
You seem to think ember is some sort of initiator when he is best played as a counter-initiator hence why I generally have betters stats even if I level of skill is poorer. My in-game knowledge of what works better puts out better numbers and contribution overall in comparison.
Yes, you're using the majority rules theory... which doesn't really work well because.... let's just take a look at humanity.
For the most part, most people ARE stupid.
It's obvious that the person who speaks the most/flames the most is generally the person who sucks the most.
So I'm 2-1-12 end game while storm is 13-5-7 which is a 6 point difference (I'll be nice and exclude deaths, otherwise we'd be even).
Yet... look at CM and lion and clock. How can you advise ill-plays and poor co-operation to go aggressive vs that line-up?
Yes please do look at the stats, not just the stats that YOU want to look at.
Storm has better flash-mobility hence why he can ball lightning in/out. This is basic news.
Yes... I've also seen plenty players and peruvians and 3k MMR and 2k MMR at 5k brackets. His irrelevant statements are false therefore he lost credibility.
Also how is possible that I gank once when I literally have more points (K/A) than both supports AND a feeding clock?
How do you get 9 assists with one gank.
How do you push uphill vs a line-up that can wipe half your team with ulties and have two of their heroes consistently be on the lookout for you?
I should've died more that game, and I'll say it again. Mirana was actually good, arrowing where I would land after I used fist, but I was fast enough to escape most of the time. ALL this because I played DEFENSIVELY.
If my team held on for a few seconds while I defended bot lane after we did ROSH, we could've won this, but instead they chose to try and gank jungle 3v5.
PUSH LANES OUT BEFORE GOING ALL TOWARDS ONE LANE WHEN YOU HAVE NP ON THE OTHER TEAM
Is this basic dota knowledge or is this advanced shit I'm telling you here...?
Well next time I hope you get queued with me and it'd be oh-so perfect if we get the same match-up.
Spectre can sit back hmm... well let's see, spectre haunts, my team stays uphill, for this case scenario probably at a t3 mid lane.
This creates 5 illusions + probable wave + at least 1 hero.
I chain the clone to prevent him from pouncing me, I leave a remnant in safety and spam W in positions that are far enough from arrow/sleep.
Oh what? They all almost died?
But I thought spec was a great carry for punishing a defensive play?
If anything spec is a HORRID carry for defensive play unless they have MULTIPLE glass cannons.
Defensive play = stick together, farm safely, ward around base perimeter and don't chase past rivers/don't do stupid rambo shit.
This means less chances of being picked apart by their extremely mobile global team.
But of course, what actually happens and what actually will happen doesn't matter.
Spec is always a great carry right?
Pudge always sucks right?
Sniper always sucks right?
Blink is always better than sb right?
These are all commonly held opinions, but I guess since literally everyone in dota 2 is complaining about/advising people on these things, these things MUST be the problem.
Sure, I'm a twat/prick/or whatever have you.
I'm literally a mirror image of whatever you present me with.
I copy you, use the same logic as you do, apply it and then piss you off because most people hate eating their own medicine.
It works wonders for getting underneath people's skin.
@ #10 no I just want to hear people use some legitimate reasoning rather than all heresy and implausible scenarios.
@ wookie
I generally try to win every game if I have good farm as a carry, there's just been too many precious moments where you want the rush of a good comeback.
right in order to stop any more offense caused i'll do a tl;dr
1) no one is denying your supports/clockwerk have bad scores,
2) no one is saying you are bad with ember spirit
3) the game you lost would have been more succesful had you (personally) gone for a more effective early game build, and as a team pushed when you had the oppurtunity
nobody is really flaming you(well at least not at the start) but you are too delusional to accept that you did cause the loss (not 100% but a large portion).
It is easy to tell just by looking at your dotabuff you play like a complete fucking panzy. Look are your KDA and look at your winrate with those heroes. Stop playing like a bitch and your teammates might not hate you.
I didn't cause the loss, it's like saying void caused a loss because CM stayed in jungle farming a midas dagon.
Void does well, stays safe and farms heavy.
CM does something stupid and rambos in after she gets bored of jungle, 1 by 1 or in groups of 2, they go in trying to save and end up dying. Void doesn't manage to win the game. Void's fault.
I don't know what you mean by panzy :/ I mean, if you mean look at my KDA and compare it to yours I can see that some of mine are generally higher... so I don't know why you would want me to do that.
Like I stated before, I don't usually dispute unless someone is extremely irritating. This isn't an often scenario.
Stop assuming things, GOML, then talk.
@Knight
I personally believe that ember is a greater carry than spec, as reinforced with personal evidence (stats). I choose to rely on what's measurable rather than heresy.
you missed the point completely your KDA is high BECAUSE you play like a moron. It is easy to avoid deaths which buff your KDA alot BUT causes you to lose alot more. With your KDA you should have at least a 80% winrate on those heroes. I am not assuming anything I am looking at all the data and formulation a fairly accurate conclusion. I refuse to watch shit tier players games anymore because when I show them their mistakes clear as day they argue and act like they are professionals.
You say you are using stats to prove that ember is a better carry, but the KDA only tells half the story. In this match Spectre achieved more hero damage than you, earned more hold than you, and ultimately won the game.
Edit: and more tower damage, your lineup of heroes didn't really have any good pushers
This guy is delusional. Everyone on his team said he's wrong, everyone on the other team said he's wrong, everyone on dotabuff said he's wrong, yet he still believes he's right. Dendi himself could make an appearance to tell him he was wrong, and the guy would still blame his team.
Did I mention I love the strawman comparison between smoking and dota?
They're completely different topics, one is GENERAL KNOWLEDGE, and the other is not.
To even use such absurd comparisons tells me everything :/
@ Ave
Funny, but not at the same time. I was hoping root had more valuable contribution than memes and troll posts...
I wonder what the 5k MMR players are going to do... perhaps you will disagree with them too?
My example is equally relevant because it is illustrating the absurdity of the Ad Hominem argument you are resorting to. An example more suited to your tastes would be as follows: "A" is a long time professional in a field of engineering and exceptionally well-paid. However, some of his practices are outdated and inefficient in the modern context. It is perfectly reasonable for a relative "noob" in the field to point out this fact which prevents "A" from improving his performance further. If "A" is a humble person and has humility, he will realise that the point is valid regardless of who it came from and improve himself. However, if "A" is an arrogant dickwad he will not improve and eventually get overtaken. (this is a real and pressing problem in most government sectors, as a matter of fact)
Going ancients when you yourself concede that pushing out lanes is necessary?
Backing after winning a major team fight?
Refusing to push when you have an Aegis?
This isn't defensive, this is stupid. You could have just followed behind your teammates using them as bait and you would have wiped the enemy team.
Bringing up KDA is such a pitiful thing. Finding excuses for why you lost will never get you better.
In the words of 'lie to me agen fagt', "stay mad, kiddo"
Yet how do you deduce or come to that conclusion based off of stats? The irony is that the stats are in my favour.
I fully agree with an analogy as above, but in order for said "noob" to be correct, they have to show it.
Otherwise it's mere talk and formulated hypothesizes.
Points cannot be points, unless valid.
Here's how it works:
Me: Based off of my experience, my game plays and what I've seen/dealt with, here is what I do and this is why and here are the results:
You: Based off of the games that I watch and what I've seen, here is what other people do, hypothetically this is why but results don't matter...?
You see how one follows through and the other doesn't? This is logical consistency and it aids in proving a point.
The teamfight that was won wouldn't have been able to win us the game. The cooldowns of hero respawns are shorter until the game progresses/you are fed.
Please read. After 25 minutes. If not, maybe I'll buy you some glasses :/
Call me stupid for being overly sensitive. Sure. I agree.
Call me a prick for being condescending. Sure. I also agree.
Say I'm wrong without proving I'm wrong. I disagree.
I watched the damned game. Stats don't matter. You can only improve yourself and not your teammates, so why even bother looking at what they did wrong? Look at your own damned mistakes.
My results, while better than yours, have no relation to the relevance of my points. Something objective is self-sufficient. Logical consistency is not pulling in irrelevant points. I am saying what you did wrong, based on the game you played alone. I am not the only person saying the same thing. I have nothing against you and nothing to gain from putting you down. I am just telling you as it is.
He said to me that building deso and bfury in 1 inventory is bad, he builds that item if he is trolling. "Cleave already ignore defense, why would you build deso?"
It's good if you can lower their armor into the the negative zone, even by one point.
Well, in Dota 1 I seem to remember the difference between 1 armor and 0 was 19% so I'd assume -1 would be -19%.
Also applies buff for allies :/
I couldn't recall whether or not cleave ignores armor, but thanks for confirming.
Any replays of him as ember?
@ Ave
K, I get butthurt easily, everyone has to deal with it.
@ Zenoth
I only brought in the stats because it was brought up to begin with :/
I did mention somewhere that I pretty much become a mirror of what I'm presented with.
Anyhow, beyond that irony, I still believe and have seen Ember to be a better carry than Spectre - just from memory and past experience (but hey isn't that how all people do it?). Henceforth why I played extremely cautiously. Worked for me, got me good results, just waiting for someone who does it better.
i.e. First time I played earth spirit I fed like crazy, I think I was 0-6... I hated randoming that hero. I saw him played well for the first time
(pre-nerf), and instantaneously did better in the next game. All I had to do was WITNESS it in action, and that made me believe. Wow, hey, maybe this works!
You have a valid point. Late game, with equal farm, Ember outcarries Spec in a 5v5 team fight. But you need to recognize that late game is not about 5v5 team fights. The global presence of Prophet and Spec means they can easily pick people off and mount a push. Against this lineup you needed to 5-man earlier before Spectre posed a threat and force them to take a fight that they are bound to lose.
However, you failed to recognize this fact and obsessed instead over how much damage Ember does in a 5v5.
I am not saying your teammates were not at fault. I am not saying that the loss is purely your fault. But if you had recognized this fact and joined your team for large clashes earlier the loss would have been preventable.
This is the point that multiple people have been trying to make.
you get slept by bane and then ultied/arrowed and disabled for ages cause no bkb.
next your underfarmed team continues to get wiped leaving you to 1v5.
next you get locked down and die. it is no "me vs spec" it is my team vs spectres team. and without a team ember spirit is fucking useless vs their disables.
also if the AA ult hits mek wouldve been a stupid item, pipe better, and your whole team and you possibly could be without regen for 13 seconds. plenty of time for them to rax. unless you decide to man fight them 1v5. in no situation does your team survive a teamfight. sure they can disable their supports and hope you get a lucky crit and all 5 of them are standing next to eachother but your team wasnt offensive like that it was defensive which couldnt cope with their amount of aggression late game.
can see how your logic works, everyone says you are wrong, while you choose to ignore what pretty much everyone In the game and this thread are saying, based on "stats"
What stats are you looking at when you say Ember is a harder carry than spectre? As I said KDA doesn't tell the whole story, hero damage, tower damage and the eventual result also tell you which was the better carry. If you're looking at player stats
I don't understand why you are being so defensive about this, you asked everyone in is thread to analyse the game but you're not accepting anyone else's opinion? Do you want us to tell you that you did perfectly and your everyone else was shit? (Obviously your supports scores are not great and that was probably the largest factor in the loss).
I'll ignore the part where you told me to "get on your level" and insulted my stats because you were probably mad, it's easy to feel as if everyone is being personally against you in a thread where everyone's saying you did something wrong (I never actually said "you're a twat", what I meant was it made you look like one by pulling up the whole "stats" thing in the middle of a game, because it did nothing to help the situation and just makes you look cocky)
Rather than just dismissing everyone's opinion based on the "consistent stats" you keep going on about, tell us what stats you're actually referring to when you try to prove us wrong, because at the moment it seems like you're trying to say everyone is wrong just for disagreeing with you. You make several good points about the difficulty of pushing up hill, which is understandable, but what many of us are saying is that you didn't capitalise on opportunity enough (like after you won a tea fight losing no one, enemy team lost 4, yet you still didn't push)
On a final note, I'd like to leave you with this http://dotabuff.com/heroes if you look at all of the tabs Spectre is higher than Ember Spirit in every respect, so in truth "stats" suggest that Spectre is indeed a better carry than ember spirit. Obviously it involves every game of dota 2 in these stats, from trench tier to top level, so the distribution might be off, but on average the stats make a valid point
If you want to play ember as a hard carry that's fine, it's perfectly viable against most lineups, however I'd say that it wasn't against this lineup. If you were planning on playing hard carry ember, I would have not gone mid, as storm would have been able to use his high mobility better while ganking, and you could have had farm up top without having to commit to as many fights.
well you was a arrow magnet. Stopped counting but mirana waas 4-0 on him in terms of the arrow. Lion even came mid to help gank, in which lion did 100% of damage meanwhile he backed off. Their CM didn't get frostbite so I think that might have affected top dying. You got like 1 rune I think the 17 mintues ur there. I mean you shoulda let storm middle at least he woulda used those runes and bottle effectively there. You would done good top lane or so/so. 17 or 20 mintues in game. You had battlefury and boots and mithril hammer, meanwhile their carry spectre had radiance & vit. booster. So yea going down hill from there. Their mirana ganked and made plays all over the map. Watching that game your KDA is a bit bloated. Most of the assist consist you u using W and 1 auto attack, meanwhile it's CM, lion or Storm doing the majority of the damage. Not sure what went wrong but after rosh you should invest in helping or reducing ally deaths. I mean that AEGIS means u wont' die and can use it to save another ally life. They were probably upset cuz after you got aegis you proceeded to farm and not use it. I mean it coulda gone to better usage on LIon, storm etc...
Just one of those games... ummm you know 2-3 patches ago. That split push furion that let's team 4v5 for whole game while he split push. Or that Am that farms for 50 minutes after 12 minute battlefury etc... Another is that invoker with euls/force staff 30 mintues in and doesn't gank or push mid lane. Your play was just like that those douchebags.
You wasted mid lane and wasted aegis. I feel if others are pissed, don't be surprized of a few enemy player sympathize with them and report you.
Yeah... well oddly enough similar scenario happened except this time I was spectre and the enemy team had ember.
We were actually losing and they were trying to "take advantage", and were pressing aggressively.
Looking at ember's items he had phase/drums/bottle/wand - the "early game" build.
However, due to his initiation with fire remnants and not having any escape mechanism, he fell short and I ended up taking over.
I was scraping bits and pieces for my radiance as cautious as possible, while his team could've stacked camps for him.
But nonetheless, they didn't use their uphill advantage and pressed early. Lost the game a lot quicker and by miles.
Also there are certain people who are making coherent points, just a lot more doing the opposite.
-and I just need to reference again, everyone (including me) quit at the 25 minute mark .___. think I've stated it like a million times.
My actual point of the topic was to discuss the uphill advantage of Ember Spirit and his ability to surpass most carries with relative safety.
4.9K solo and 4.3K team MMR player here. Looking over it, it looks like your main reason for losing is partially you not having a presence at all until it was too late. The other players struggle without your DPS in early and mid game. Your team needed to smoke gank more. Your team also has no pushing power while their team has amazing pushing AND ganking presence. I don't even know how your team let the other team draft such a lineup. A bane AND a mirana AND a NP? Dumbest team captain ever whoever that was.
They have NP split pushing, they have a spec who can safe farm and ult into ganks/pushes, they have an AA who can keep lanes pushed as well as team clash, and of course mirana/bane combo.
You had almost no chance of winning this unless the other team was retarded. If they were competent, you needed to have early/mid game presence. You cannot out farm their team push/gank potential. Who gives a crap if you can farm your 6-slot, they will split push you to death. This game meta is about early-mid pushing, no more 6-slotting 3k MMR style games.
Right... cause the last game that a team tried that against a less deadly team in comparison, it ended horribly.
The opposing team wasn't even able to get farm after it hit 23 minutes, let alone a couple core items.
This was due to them doing what my team did - exposing themselves.
Yes, we all know that our tower DPS was garbage, but hoping for an uphill team-fight win was a lot less riskier than chasing after their ridiculous line-up.
I do question spectre's farming ability in comparison to ember. Generally dispersion won't eliminate creeps, nevermind ancient creeps nearly as fast.
Anyhow, no. I will not, "STFU". Please and thank you. (:
I don't think you were winning that game no matter what. It sounds like you wanted to play defensive and try to wipe them at your rax. Fat chance of that actually working, their team has a 500gpm advantage. Maybe you could've pushed harder early but with supports underfarmed and feeding and no one buying mek you probably would've died. Your team did almost no tower dmg and was behind in farm and had less carry late. Hard to win any games like that.
I don't really like the draft that much. Your team has no tower dmg, whether it's pushers or right clickers, 3 ints vs spectre, no tank although I guess that's supposed to be clock, two mid heroes in storm and ember.
lol this guy asks for feedback but really just wants to hear people say he did well.
"We ended up losing because CM/SS/Lion started to flame me"
You lost because you dont deal well with flame, simple, whatever dude at least those assholes you had for team lost.
Okay, you try ganking a global team with Mirana Bane and then tell me how that oh-so plausible scenario is right.
I've watched good players, I've seen good players, I've met good players.
You seem to think ember is some sort of initiator when he is best played as a counter-initiator hence why I generally have betters stats even if I level of skill is poorer. My in-game knowledge of what works better puts out better numbers and contribution overall in comparison.
Yes, you're using the majority rules theory... which doesn't really work well because.... let's just take a look at humanity.
For the most part, most people ARE stupid.
It's obvious that the person who speaks the most/flames the most is generally the person who sucks the most.
So I'm 2-1-12 end game while storm is 13-5-7 which is a 6 point difference (I'll be nice and exclude deaths, otherwise we'd be even).
Yet... look at CM and lion and clock. How can you advise ill-plays and poor co-operation to go aggressive vs that line-up?
Yes please do look at the stats, not just the stats that YOU want to look at.
Storm has better flash-mobility hence why he can ball lightning in/out. This is basic news.
Yes... I've also seen plenty players and peruvians and 3k MMR and 2k MMR at 5k brackets. His irrelevant statements are false therefore he lost credibility.
Also how is possible that I gank once when I literally have more points (K/A) than both supports AND a feeding clock?
How do you get 9 assists with one gank.
How do you push uphill vs a line-up that can wipe half your team with ulties and have two of their heroes consistently be on the lookout for you?
I should've died more that game, and I'll say it again. Mirana was actually good, arrowing where I would land after I used fist, but I was fast enough to escape most of the time. ALL this because I played DEFENSIVELY.
If my team held on for a few seconds while I defended bot lane after we did ROSH, we could've won this, but instead they chose to try and gank jungle 3v5.
PUSH LANES OUT BEFORE GOING ALL TOWARDS ONE LANE WHEN YOU HAVE NP ON THE OTHER TEAM
Is this basic dota knowledge or is this advanced shit I'm telling you here...?
Well next time I hope you get queued with me and it'd be oh-so perfect if we get the same match-up.
Spectre can sit back hmm... well let's see, spectre haunts, my team stays uphill, for this case scenario probably at a t3 mid lane.
This creates 5 illusions + probable wave + at least 1 hero.
I chain the clone to prevent him from pouncing me, I leave a remnant in safety and spam W in positions that are far enough from arrow/sleep.
Oh what? They all almost died?
But I thought spec was a great carry for punishing a defensive play?
If anything spec is a HORRID carry for defensive play unless they have MULTIPLE glass cannons.
Defensive play = stick together, farm safely, ward around base perimeter and don't chase past rivers/don't do stupid rambo shit.
This means less chances of being picked apart by their extremely mobile global team.
But of course, what actually happens and what actually will happen doesn't matter.
Spec is always a great carry right?
Pudge always sucks right?
Sniper always sucks right?
Blink is always better than sb right?
These are all commonly held opinions, but I guess since literally everyone in dota 2 is complaining about/advising people on these things, these things MUST be the problem.
Sure, I'm a twat/prick/or whatever have you.
I'm literally a mirror image of whatever you present me with.
I copy you, use the same logic as you do, apply it and then piss you off because most people hate eating their own medicine.
It works wonders for getting underneath people's skin.
@ #10 no I just want to hear people use some legitimate reasoning rather than all heresy and implausible scenarios.
@ wookie
I generally try to win every game if I have good farm as a carry, there's just been too many precious moments where you want the rush of a good comeback.
here: http://dotabuff.com/matches/556648135
Just an example of what happens when the team listens.
@ dorkly
True, I don't deal well with flames, as you can tell.
right in order to stop any more offense caused i'll do a tl;dr
1) no one is denying your supports/clockwerk have bad scores,
2) no one is saying you are bad with ember spirit
3) the game you lost would have been more succesful had you (personally) gone for a more effective early game build, and as a team pushed when you had the oppurtunity
that is all
nobody is really flaming you(well at least not at the start) but you are too delusional to accept that you did cause the loss (not 100% but a large portion).
It is easy to tell just by looking at your dotabuff you play like a complete fucking panzy. Look are your KDA and look at your winrate with those heroes. Stop playing like a bitch and your teammates might not hate you.
@ samp
I didn't cause the loss, it's like saying void caused a loss because CM stayed in jungle farming a midas dagon.
Void does well, stays safe and farms heavy.
CM does something stupid and rambos in after she gets bored of jungle, 1 by 1 or in groups of 2, they go in trying to save and end up dying. Void doesn't manage to win the game. Void's fault.
I don't know what you mean by panzy :/ I mean, if you mean look at my KDA and compare it to yours I can see that some of mine are generally higher... so I don't know why you would want me to do that.
Like I stated before, I don't usually dispute unless someone is extremely irritating. This isn't an often scenario.
Stop assuming things, GOML, then talk.
@Knight
I personally believe that ember is a greater carry than spec, as reinforced with personal evidence (stats). I choose to rely on what's measurable rather than heresy.
This thread... my sides.
you missed the point completely your KDA is high BECAUSE you play like a moron. It is easy to avoid deaths which buff your KDA alot BUT causes you to lose alot more. With your KDA you should have at least a 80% winrate on those heroes. I am not assuming anything I am looking at all the data and formulation a fairly accurate conclusion. I refuse to watch shit tier players games anymore because when I show them their mistakes clear as day they argue and act like they are professionals.
No need to thank me.
/thread
You say you are using stats to prove that ember is a better carry, but the KDA only tells half the story. In this match Spectre achieved more hero damage than you, earned more hold than you, and ultimately won the game.
Edit: and more tower damage, your lineup of heroes didn't really have any good pushers
This guy is delusional. Everyone on his team said he's wrong, everyone on the other team said he's wrong, everyone on dotabuff said he's wrong, yet he still believes he's right. Dendi himself could make an appearance to tell him he was wrong, and the guy would still blame his team.
he would prob blame dendi too
Yes, in this match. I'm saying on average, stats are better.
Consistency is greater than a singular match.
Goml........... your winrates and kda's are horrid :/
my stats are horrible yet my MM is much higher than yours what does that say about how important your 'stats' are?
Did I mention I love the strawman comparison between smoking and dota?
They're completely different topics, one is GENERAL KNOWLEDGE, and the other is not.
To even use such absurd comparisons tells me everything :/
@ Ave
Funny, but not at the same time. I was hoping root had more valuable contribution than memes and troll posts...
I wonder what the 5k MMR players are going to do... perhaps you will disagree with them too?
@ Samp, your MM?
R?
Doubt it.
add me on steam and I will show u
I dont trust people to be honest about their MM
3322 MMR here
^1654 max
still waiting for that invite :)
I refuse to watch shit tier players games anymore because when I show them their mistakes clear as day they argue and act like they are professionals.
@sampson
na man i am always ready to get better
My example is equally relevant because it is illustrating the absurdity of the Ad Hominem argument you are resorting to. An example more suited to your tastes would be as follows: "A" is a long time professional in a field of engineering and exceptionally well-paid. However, some of his practices are outdated and inefficient in the modern context. It is perfectly reasonable for a relative "noob" in the field to point out this fact which prevents "A" from improving his performance further. If "A" is a humble person and has humility, he will realise that the point is valid regardless of who it came from and improve himself. However, if "A" is an arrogant dickwad he will not improve and eventually get overtaken. (this is a real and pressing problem in most government sectors, as a matter of fact)
Going ancients when you yourself concede that pushing out lanes is necessary?
Backing after winning a major team fight?
Refusing to push when you have an Aegis?
This isn't defensive, this is stupid. You could have just followed behind your teammates using them as bait and you would have wiped the enemy team.
Bringing up KDA is such a pitiful thing. Finding excuses for why you lost will never get you better.
In the words of 'lie to me agen fagt', "stay mad, kiddo"
Post your steam link.
Yet how do you deduce or come to that conclusion based off of stats? The irony is that the stats are in my favour.
I fully agree with an analogy as above, but in order for said "noob" to be correct, they have to show it.
Otherwise it's mere talk and formulated hypothesizes.
Points cannot be points, unless valid.
Here's how it works:
Me: Based off of my experience, my game plays and what I've seen/dealt with, here is what I do and this is why and here are the results:
You: Based off of the games that I watch and what I've seen, here is what other people do, hypothetically this is why but results don't matter...?
You see how one follows through and the other doesn't? This is logical consistency and it aids in proving a point.
The teamfight that was won wouldn't have been able to win us the game. The cooldowns of hero respawns are shorter until the game progresses/you are fed.
Please read. After 25 minutes. If not, maybe I'll buy you some glasses :/
Call me stupid for being overly sensitive. Sure. I agree.
Call me a prick for being condescending. Sure. I also agree.
Say I'm wrong without proving I'm wrong. I disagree.
Relax OP, it's [u]not entirely[/u] your fault.
Some games are simply impossible to win.
I watched the damned game. Stats don't matter. You can only improve yourself and not your teammates, so why even bother looking at what they did wrong? Look at your own damned mistakes.
My results, while better than yours, have no relation to the relevance of my points. Something objective is self-sufficient. Logical consistency is not pulling in irrelevant points. I am saying what you did wrong, based on the game you played alone. I am not the only person saying the same thing. I have nothing against you and nothing to gain from putting you down. I am just telling you as it is.
Zenoth-sama is wise, listen to him.
The reason why i said deso is bad is because i asked Beesa the other day for item build advice, Hehas 6k solo MMR, 75% winrate and has ember spirit as his most played hero
http://dotabuff.com/players/43908335/matches?game_mode=&hero=ember-spirit&lobby_type=&match_type=real
He said to me that building deso and bfury in 1 inventory is bad, he builds that item if he is trolling. "Cleave already ignore defense, why would you build deso?"
@yfay
It's good if you can lower their armor into the the negative zone, even by one point.
Well, in Dota 1 I seem to remember the difference between 1 armor and 0 was 19% so I'd assume -1 would be -19%.
Also applies buff for allies :/
I couldn't recall whether or not cleave ignores armor, but thanks for confirming.
Any replays of him as ember?
@ Ave
K, I get butthurt easily, everyone has to deal with it.
@ Zenoth
I only brought in the stats because it was brought up to begin with :/
I did mention somewhere that I pretty much become a mirror of what I'm presented with.
Anyhow, beyond that irony, I still believe and have seen Ember to be a better carry than Spectre - just from memory and past experience (but hey isn't that how all people do it?). Henceforth why I played extremely cautiously. Worked for me, got me good results, just waiting for someone who does it better.
i.e. First time I played earth spirit I fed like crazy, I think I was 0-6... I hated randoming that hero. I saw him played well for the first time
(pre-nerf), and instantaneously did better in the next game. All I had to do was WITNESS it in action, and that made me believe. Wow, hey, maybe this works!
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Lk0gF08.png[/IMG]
^ that was actually interesting.
You have a valid point. Late game, with equal farm, Ember outcarries Spec in a 5v5 team fight. But you need to recognize that late game is not about 5v5 team fights. The global presence of Prophet and Spec means they can easily pick people off and mount a push. Against this lineup you needed to 5-man earlier before Spectre posed a threat and force them to take a fight that they are bound to lose.
However, you failed to recognize this fact and obsessed instead over how much damage Ember does in a 5v5.
I am not saying your teammates were not at fault. I am not saying that the loss is purely your fault. But if you had recognized this fact and joined your team for large clashes earlier the loss would have been preventable.
This is the point that multiple people have been trying to make.
plausible scenario:
you get slept by bane and then ultied/arrowed and disabled for ages cause no bkb.
next your underfarmed team continues to get wiped leaving you to 1v5.
next you get locked down and die. it is no "me vs spec" it is my team vs spectres team. and without a team ember spirit is fucking useless vs their disables.
also if the AA ult hits mek wouldve been a stupid item, pipe better, and your whole team and you possibly could be without regen for 13 seconds. plenty of time for them to rax. unless you decide to man fight them 1v5. in no situation does your team survive a teamfight. sure they can disable their supports and hope you get a lucky crit and all 5 of them are standing next to eachother but your team wasnt offensive like that it was defensive which couldnt cope with their amount of aggression late game.
can see how your logic works, everyone says you are wrong, while you choose to ignore what pretty much everyone In the game and this thread are saying, based on "stats"
What stats are you looking at when you say Ember is a harder carry than spectre? As I said KDA doesn't tell the whole story, hero damage, tower damage and the eventual result also tell you which was the better carry. If you're looking at player stats
I don't understand why you are being so defensive about this, you asked everyone in is thread to analyse the game but you're not accepting anyone else's opinion? Do you want us to tell you that you did perfectly and your everyone else was shit? (Obviously your supports scores are not great and that was probably the largest factor in the loss).
I'll ignore the part where you told me to "get on your level" and insulted my stats because you were probably mad, it's easy to feel as if everyone is being personally against you in a thread where everyone's saying you did something wrong (I never actually said "you're a twat", what I meant was it made you look like one by pulling up the whole "stats" thing in the middle of a game, because it did nothing to help the situation and just makes you look cocky)
Rather than just dismissing everyone's opinion based on the "consistent stats" you keep going on about, tell us what stats you're actually referring to when you try to prove us wrong, because at the moment it seems like you're trying to say everyone is wrong just for disagreeing with you. You make several good points about the difficulty of pushing up hill, which is understandable, but what many of us are saying is that you didn't capitalise on opportunity enough (like after you won a tea fight losing no one, enemy team lost 4, yet you still didn't push)
On a final note, I'd like to leave you with this http://dotabuff.com/heroes if you look at all of the tabs Spectre is higher than Ember Spirit in every respect, so in truth "stats" suggest that Spectre is indeed a better carry than ember spirit. Obviously it involves every game of dota 2 in these stats, from trench tier to top level, so the distribution might be off, but on average the stats make a valid point
If you want to play ember as a hard carry that's fine, it's perfectly viable against most lineups, however I'd say that it wasn't against this lineup. If you were planning on playing hard carry ember, I would have not gone mid, as storm would have been able to use his high mobility better while ganking, and you could have had farm up top without having to commit to as many fights.
so at 25min u had 0-1-9, 20min laters u had 2-1-12? AKA, +1 kill, +3 assisst. Thats what you accomplished the last 20mins, + a maelstrom?
well you was a arrow magnet. Stopped counting but mirana waas 4-0 on him in terms of the arrow. Lion even came mid to help gank, in which lion did 100% of damage meanwhile he backed off. Their CM didn't get frostbite so I think that might have affected top dying. You got like 1 rune I think the 17 mintues ur there. I mean you shoulda let storm middle at least he woulda used those runes and bottle effectively there. You would done good top lane or so/so. 17 or 20 mintues in game. You had battlefury and boots and mithril hammer, meanwhile their carry spectre had radiance & vit. booster. So yea going down hill from there. Their mirana ganked and made plays all over the map. Watching that game your KDA is a bit bloated. Most of the assist consist you u using W and 1 auto attack, meanwhile it's CM, lion or Storm doing the majority of the damage. Not sure what went wrong but after rosh you should invest in helping or reducing ally deaths. I mean that AEGIS means u wont' die and can use it to save another ally life. They were probably upset cuz after you got aegis you proceeded to farm and not use it. I mean it coulda gone to better usage on LIon, storm etc...
Just one of those games... ummm you know 2-3 patches ago. That split push furion that let's team 4v5 for whole game while he split push. Or that Am that farms for 50 minutes after 12 minute battlefury etc... Another is that invoker with euls/force staff 30 mintues in and doesn't gank or push mid lane. Your play was just like that those douchebags.
You wasted mid lane and wasted aegis. I feel if others are pissed, don't be surprized of a few enemy player sympathize with them and report you.
Lol just reread thread, so much delusional fun.
Yeah... well oddly enough similar scenario happened except this time I was spectre and the enemy team had ember.
We were actually losing and they were trying to "take advantage", and were pressing aggressively.
Looking at ember's items he had phase/drums/bottle/wand - the "early game" build.
However, due to his initiation with fire remnants and not having any escape mechanism, he fell short and I ended up taking over.
I was scraping bits and pieces for my radiance as cautious as possible, while his team could've stacked camps for him.
But nonetheless, they didn't use their uphill advantage and pressed early. Lost the game a lot quicker and by miles.
Also there are certain people who are making coherent points, just a lot more doing the opposite.
-and I just need to reference again, everyone (including me) quit at the 25 minute mark .___. think I've stated it like a million times.
My actual point of the topic was to discuss the uphill advantage of Ember Spirit and his ability to surpass most carries with relative safety.
4.9K solo and 4.3K team MMR player here. Looking over it, it looks like your main reason for losing is partially you not having a presence at all until it was too late. The other players struggle without your DPS in early and mid game. Your team needed to smoke gank more. Your team also has no pushing power while their team has amazing pushing AND ganking presence. I don't even know how your team let the other team draft such a lineup. A bane AND a mirana AND a NP? Dumbest team captain ever whoever that was.
They have NP split pushing, they have a spec who can safe farm and ult into ganks/pushes, they have an AA who can keep lanes pushed as well as team clash, and of course mirana/bane combo.
You had almost no chance of winning this unless the other team was retarded. If they were competent, you needed to have early/mid game presence. You cannot out farm their team push/gank potential. Who gives a crap if you can farm your 6-slot, they will split push you to death. This game meta is about early-mid pushing, no more 6-slotting 3k MMR style games.
Now please STFU.
Right... cause the last game that a team tried that against a less deadly team in comparison, it ended horribly.
The opposing team wasn't even able to get farm after it hit 23 minutes, let alone a couple core items.
This was due to them doing what my team did - exposing themselves.
Yes, we all know that our tower DPS was garbage, but hoping for an uphill team-fight win was a lot less riskier than chasing after their ridiculous line-up.
I do question spectre's farming ability in comparison to ember. Generally dispersion won't eliminate creeps, nevermind ancient creeps nearly as fast.
Anyhow, no. I will not, "STFU". Please and thank you. (:
Lol, I always come back here for some good laughs.
I'm glad you managed to save and hold on to things like a petty little girl.
Entertain me more vandal.