I agree with you. In pudge case you can still dodge the hook, and its pretty hard to land a good hook. Clock its another hero who can close the distance from a very long range, but its a skillshot so he can miss.
Now imagine if clock hook was a target selection skill where you just need to select the enemy hero and he will hook for you and the same with pudge hook.
Storm spirit needs a lot of mana do jump far away, blink heroes has a max range of blink, clock and pudge are skill shots. Spirit breaker only needs visionn of the enemy hero, and even a clock rocket can give you vision.
"Yes. If you nerf SB in all those ways you would completely destroy the hero. There is a reason why this game is balanced around good players and thank god people like you are not in charge of balance."
so ..... " OMG U NAB PRO PLAYERS DONT PICK HIM SO YOU ARE WRONG EUHEHEUEHUEUHE "
yeah ..... good arguments bro.
"this game is balanced around good players"
This game is balanced around the entire comunity being the players good or bad it doesnt matter.
Well you definitely cannot impose a penalty to cancelling charge. What if you are charging tinker and he ports out to their base? Cancel charge so you don't end up in their fountain but you get a 100 second penalty? That's far too severe. Or what if you screw up a charge and get stuck in some trees? Cancel and possibly get stuck there for 100 seconds? It just doesn't make sense. Plus no other ability has varying cooldown times like that.
Change the base str if you want I don't care, it's not going to really balance him one way or the other.
I'm tempted to say bash should be a separate mechanic from skullbasher and thus not go through bkb but honestly I think he'd be pretty worthless if you could just bkb counter him.
^He doesnt need a big nerf. Make his charge not proc greater bash, or low he starting str, or make his bash prng like void or slardar bash, or low bash damage. None of that would make the hero useless.
I think it is as simple as nerfing just one or two of his many strengths. I don't think there is anything wrong with a hero that can instagib supports, or that has insanely high EHP at the start, or high right click damage, but no hero should do ALL of those things, in every lane, globally. Either slightly nerf his bash chance, or just lower his starting strength moderately and leave it at that.
Pretty much what Dorkly said. Just wanted to make it clear that the problem isn't any one of his abilities. It's that he has all of them in one big blue space cow package.
@Dorkly do you perhaps have a mental disability? Where did I say "OMG U NAB PRO PLAYERS DONT PICK HIM SO YOU ARE WRONG EUHEHEUEHUEUHE"?
There is no point in arguing with people like you Dorkly. You clearly don't understand this game well enough to be able to contribute to a balance discussion.
Ok. So do you understand how childish is to come into a discussion and bring nothing apart from flame ?
"There is a reason why this game is balanced around good players and thank god people like you are not in charge of balance."
You come here and flame him ( people like you ? ) and do you expect that anyone will take you serious ? Without any arguments ? and with that ridiculous 'i-know-it-all' attitude? and after all that you say that there is no point in arguing when it was you who started flaming for no reason at all. If there is no point in arguing why do you ever comment at all ?.
Anyway, you are not the first one here with a anime avatar to be really arrogant.
You should listen to Sam and Weasel, bara is strong but not OP. Most often used supports (VS, CM, SK, ES, WD, SD, WR etc.) have a disable to stop SB right in his tracks, any carry will beat him 1v1 in mid game because bara needs a lot of atk speed to perma bash which he won't get cause he's not even played as a carry, why? Because his team fight sucks ass, he CAN disable a few people with charge but only if their positioning is bad. He has a pretty small manapool too. Yes he has high str and armor and he can dive tower, but it's common knowledge to tp when someone's diving and that's how you counter one of his biggest strengths. Oh and yeah, if you buy smoke everytime you gank, that's 100gold from your gank and you're not even guaranteed you will succeed, there's a limit to smoke too. In a 1v1 situation bara is usually really good, but DotA is not 1v1, it's 5v5.
To sum up:
Almost no AOE so not such a good team fight presence
Meele so he gets harassed in lane
No farm accelerating ability
Greater bash has cooldown so there's 0.1s where the opponent can't do anything and you can bash (after that he can start attacking you and lifesteal, stun you, slow you and run away)
Also, I don't know if it's just me but I think he has very shitty turn rate, if you get slowed it takes forever to turn around.
So there are your cons, others might think of more.
As far as I'm concerned they might want to bring back that charge indicator from dota and maybe lower his str or armor by a bit, he may be strong and harder to counter than most heroes but he is definetily not OP.
linkins counters him pretty well, he can't randomly charge you anymore. warding and having a tp scroll. counters him pretty well. support not solo farming a lane counters him pretty well, calling out whenever sb goes missing counters him pretty well. staying as 5 and watching your carry and mid farm things counter him pretty well. anyone with an orchids pre bkb sb counters him pretty well well. playing dota correctly counters him pretty well. the reason why sb isn't op is because he is more lvl dependant than item dependant. once any legitimate carry acquires items they can probably kill sb in a teamfight. bad gameplay in general makes him look op. its like the whole pl thing they really didn't nerf that hero just ppl figured ways to beat him. idk media is op, just s lot of ppl dont play that hero correctly
@TehMasterSword
I agree with you. In pudge case you can still dodge the hook, and its pretty hard to land a good hook. Clock its another hero who can close the distance from a very long range, but its a skillshot so he can miss.
Now imagine if clock hook was a target selection skill where you just need to select the enemy hero and he will hook for you and the same with pudge hook.
Storm spirit needs a lot of mana do jump far away, blink heroes has a max range of blink, clock and pudge are skill shots. Spirit breaker only needs visionn of the enemy hero, and even a clock rocket can give you vision.
"Yes. If you nerf SB in all those ways you would completely destroy the hero. There is a reason why this game is balanced around good players and thank god people like you are not in charge of balance."
so ..... " OMG U NAB PRO PLAYERS DONT PICK HIM SO YOU ARE WRONG EUHEHEUEHUEUHE "
yeah ..... good arguments bro.
"this game is balanced around good players"
This game is balanced around the entire comunity being the players good or bad it doesnt matter.
Well you definitely cannot impose a penalty to cancelling charge. What if you are charging tinker and he ports out to their base? Cancel charge so you don't end up in their fountain but you get a 100 second penalty? That's far too severe. Or what if you screw up a charge and get stuck in some trees? Cancel and possibly get stuck there for 100 seconds? It just doesn't make sense. Plus no other ability has varying cooldown times like that.
Change the base str if you want I don't care, it's not going to really balance him one way or the other.
I'm tempted to say bash should be a separate mechanic from skullbasher and thus not go through bkb but honestly I think he'd be pretty worthless if you could just bkb counter him.
^He doesnt need a big nerf. Make his charge not proc greater bash, or low he starting str, or make his bash prng like void or slardar bash, or low bash damage. None of that would make the hero useless.
I think it is as simple as nerfing just one or two of his many strengths. I don't think there is anything wrong with a hero that can instagib supports, or that has insanely high EHP at the start, or high right click damage, but no hero should do ALL of those things, in every lane, globally. Either slightly nerf his bash chance, or just lower his starting strength moderately and leave it at that.
Pretty much what Dorkly said. Just wanted to make it clear that the problem isn't any one of his abilities. It's that he has all of them in one big blue space cow package.
@Dorkly do you perhaps have a mental disability? Where did I say "OMG U NAB PRO PLAYERS DONT PICK HIM SO YOU ARE WRONG EUHEHEUEHUEUHE"?
There is no point in arguing with people like you Dorkly. You clearly don't understand this game well enough to be able to contribute to a balance discussion.
Why you ppl want to nerf a lovely white cow ?
@åäö
Ok. So do you understand how childish is to come into a discussion and bring nothing apart from flame ?
"There is a reason why this game is balanced around good players and thank god people like you are not in charge of balance."
You come here and flame him ( people like you ? ) and do you expect that anyone will take you serious ? Without any arguments ? and with that ridiculous 'i-know-it-all' attitude? and after all that you say that there is no point in arguing when it was you who started flaming for no reason at all. If there is no point in arguing why do you ever comment at all ?.
Anyway, you are not the first one here with a anime avatar to be really arrogant.
You should listen to Sam and Weasel, bara is strong but not OP. Most often used supports (VS, CM, SK, ES, WD, SD, WR etc.) have a disable to stop SB right in his tracks, any carry will beat him 1v1 in mid game because bara needs a lot of atk speed to perma bash which he won't get cause he's not even played as a carry, why? Because his team fight sucks ass, he CAN disable a few people with charge but only if their positioning is bad. He has a pretty small manapool too. Yes he has high str and armor and he can dive tower, but it's common knowledge to tp when someone's diving and that's how you counter one of his biggest strengths. Oh and yeah, if you buy smoke everytime you gank, that's 100gold from your gank and you're not even guaranteed you will succeed, there's a limit to smoke too. In a 1v1 situation bara is usually really good, but DotA is not 1v1, it's 5v5.
To sum up:
Almost no AOE so not such a good team fight presence
Meele so he gets harassed in lane
No farm accelerating ability
Greater bash has cooldown so there's 0.1s where the opponent can't do anything and you can bash (after that he can start attacking you and lifesteal, stun you, slow you and run away)
Also, I don't know if it's just me but I think he has very shitty turn rate, if you get slowed it takes forever to turn around.
So there are your cons, others might think of more.
As far as I'm concerned they might want to bring back that charge indicator from dota and maybe lower his str or armor by a bit, he may be strong and harder to counter than most heroes but he is definetily not OP.
linkins counters him pretty well, he can't randomly charge you anymore. warding and having a tp scroll. counters him pretty well. support not solo farming a lane counters him pretty well, calling out whenever sb goes missing counters him pretty well. staying as 5 and watching your carry and mid farm things counter him pretty well. anyone with an orchids pre bkb sb counters him pretty well well. playing dota correctly counters him pretty well. the reason why sb isn't op is because he is more lvl dependant than item dependant. once any legitimate carry acquires items they can probably kill sb in a teamfight. bad gameplay in general makes him look op. its like the whole pl thing they really didn't nerf that hero just ppl figured ways to beat him. idk media is op, just s lot of ppl dont play that hero correctly
medusa * not media