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40 comments
Gonzo

    First.. suck it plebs

    Hello Titty

      Shadowfiend is back!

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      Rekt

        THIRD!!! yeah, pretty good

        Xcalibur-

          4th? Haha

          pos

            thx osfrog. now I can increase my stack camp number even faster 😁

            Blurrybob

              Haha indeed

              small retarded dog

                Jungle and offlane are dead.

                MM.Ugh Brock Hall

                  It's a weird thing that happened in this patch, because in the long run you'll get way more farm, but the laning stage provides so much potential that a successful laning stage snowballs those early game heroes. Really all this patch does is make me think about what's going to happen next to balance these changes, and I think these three things are possible (even though they are wild ideas):

                  1. Nerf the deny mechanics. Right now the xp in a contested lane is guaranteed to be 100% efficient with the 30/70 split. To promote those late game situations I could definitely see them backing it off to 20/50. Brings back old deny xp for the enemy but backs off your benefits, meaning a freefarm lane doesn't snowball nearly as much.

                  2. Buff to Iron Talon or other jungling items. Enough said.

                  3. Extra levels. This is definitely out there because it would radically change the way you play heroes and which heroes would be strong in certain situations, but overall I think heroes that are strong in the late game or heroes with xp talents would become more valuable if the level cap was raised to 30. Again I understand how slim the chances of that happening are, but hey, we have a talent tree and shrines and a backpack. Add that to the 'tier 4' items we have been seeing like Moon Shard, Lotus Orb, Bot 2s, and Bloodthorns and it makes sense that the game shifts so that instead of those being items bought after the level cap, they become 'lvl 25-30' items.

                  One can dream, right?

                  P.S.

                  As much as I agree with this article, I also think, should we not see a mini patch before TI, that games will slow down again as we get closer to TI and teams will grab a late game safety carry to exploit the jungle while the rest of the team exploits the XP. It just makes sense to me that teams will want to cover more bases when the game provides more bases to cover.

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                  SaMBa BaBa

                    Jungle is not dead, you just need to protect it by getting towers or defending your towers, so game will be faster in early levels and more farm oriented as it gets longer

                    Anomalina`

                      @Brock Hall
                      Well said, I admire your knowledge of the game, seriously... I don't really agree with your first point though, I like the way it is right now...

                      As for my pubs, no matter what this post says, it isn't going to stop people picking jungle LC...

                      MM.Ugh Brock Hall

                        @Anomalina~

                        Appreciate the kind words! Let me back up my thoughts on the first point a little more:

                        I really do like how the mechanic punishes the decision to abandon a lane, but as it works right now you can't make that decision because you'll never recoup the losses in the jungle. At level 1 it takes just as long to clear a creep wave but you get less xp for it. It doesn't matter how many neutrals spawn, what matters is the time to clear a camp.

                        On top of this, the game has increased the punishments across the board, across the length of the game. To me that says 'rubber band mechanics'. There's so much opportunity to jump ahead from even a small skirmish that it makes the game feel explosive, the advantage not swaying but seesawing. This mechanic makes the game feel cheap when the rewards are so great, because a small victory shouldn't give huge rewards.

                        Alexey
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                          Raphael

                            sand king likes this patch :)

                            Sleight of My Fist In You...

                              totally nerfed the jungle....played troll 2 games in a row as a jungler and got my morbid mask like 2 minutes later than i usually would have...exp and gold are just not there in the jungle anymore

                              while previously you would have reached lv 6 ~ 6 minute mark, im noticing it takes like 8-9 minutes now and this is with all possible stacking...very serious nerf to junglers to the point that jungling is actually detrimental to your game

                              opposition will all of a sudden just blow thru you with more exp and gold...i think that it's just the last resort if youre having a horrible laning stage

                              sad because jungling was actually one of the best ways to get out of the trench....now it'll probably send you further down

                              Empire.Zephyr

                                I have just win a game with luna just using double camp at top radiant side. 26k networth. I used madness

                                Han Solo (shoots first)

                                  On the other hand if you have a support like CM who can grab creeps and stay out of exp range of the carry, but be close enough to help....new jungle pretty great.

                                  Dalinar Kholin

                                    17h... nobody is 17th suckaz.

                                    iAMspecials

                                      nice meme

                                      Kiru

                                        I actually thought dual midlanes come back, after seeing the changes to mid. Winning mid is HUGE this patch. At the same time, early jungle isn't worth it, aside of stacking. So having a support help the carry and the other do some stacking, rune-control and general laning help around mid seems logical.

                                        However logical or not, given how long solo mid has been a thing now, it'd take some time to have an effect. If the mid and exp changes don't get changed again, or even more amplified, I can totally see that coming though. But until then pub enemy nr.1 will be all those still trying to play an afk jungler.

                                        MM.Ugh Brock Hall

                                          @Kiru

                                          I think junglers will taper off fairly quickly though. People are all excited that their precious 1 min respawn timer is back so without looking at the other changes they head full bore into the jungle. However I think they will find pretty quickly that they are losing match after match in the jungle and get discouraged.

                                          Or blame the team for not denying enough. Which is probably true but not the point.

                                          ffinnaggann

                                            @Brock Hall

                                            At low levels of play, losing games because you did something wrong does not cause people to change tactics. Games where I have a jungler on my team have pretty much always been below 50% winrate, yet it still happens. The fact it is worse now will make it less common but the people who do it already don't understand what good dota looks like. I am not bitter about this like a lot of people but it is a thing to keep in mind. Above 3k though most people will see how bad jungle is right now. It is a way to farm mid and late when you can clear a whole jungle in a minute, and it almost certainly was a buff to antimage and sven and other fast farming heroes, but it just made them more capable of snowballing after an early success. Teams will revolve around winning lanes and then determining how to capitalize on the advantage. I think that heroes like broodmother might actually have a place in the meta to come. Maybe that is just wishful thinking and my love of broodmother, but with increased lane exp from denies and the 25% exp talent she gets at level 10, I think she has a chance to make a splash. If she or a support correctly counter ward sentries in whatever lane she is in she can very easily just win that lane, which makes up for the extra resource spent securing it. Her advantage snowballs and she starts clearing enemy jungle by ten minutes. Suddenly you have a scary split pusher that forces the enemies hand. When the enemy has to deal with a giant broodmother early in the game, she can actually have impact. In the past she suffered because a giant broodmother was not scary enough against a good team, It was kind of like she was a bad alchemist that lost to alchemist. Now she might be able to find a spot with alchemist, naga siren, and terrorblade getting nerfed, while she just gets buffs with the experience mechanics.

                                            MM.Ugh Brock Hall

                                              @ffinnaggann

                                              You kind of went off on a tangent that didn't really have anything to do with my reply to Kiru, but I'm not naively denying that some people love one hero and one hero only. I know that tons of people play only Invoker through hell or high water. Same goes for Legion players. However, I do believe that lower pubs will see at least a moderate degree of reduction in junglers.

                                              As for the rest of your comments, I'd say even with the buffs Brood got in the 7.06b patch you're not going to see a whole lot of her in pro play, but I do agree that the jungle is important to mid and late game. Right now the pro scene is embracing the strong laning stage as a way to deathball, but I wouldn't put it past teams to incorporate a safety farmer in their lineup, like the old Na'Vi '4 fight 1 farm' strategy.

                                              Wayful Spirit

                                                Game barely got faster. This patch is on average as lengthy as previous ones. And most of heroes face economic recession this days except flash farmers and powerful killers.

                                                TOM

                                                  denying gives 70% xp to enemy hero? Welcome to LoL!

                                                  Frizbee Alert

                                                    Next patch I think that Sven needs a significant nerf to his movement speed. He farms way to well right now and there needs to be some way to stop him. -movespeed would help the fact that the hero can kinda afk jungle for a bit and catch up on whatever he missed out on previously. This also makes his lanning stage much more difficult and exploitable making him an easier chase in the early game. This nerf would not kill the hero off though. His armor ability also gives a percent based movement speed bonus which is worse now that he hypothetically has less speed, but having any sort of + speed modifier on a slow hero is already a plus.

                                                    As a side note can we end the stupid stomp spell the new ancient has? In fact can we get rid of both of those spells? the fact that the creep has an anti stacking mechanism that inconsistently fucks you over is so annoying. The root is bad enough where it stops you so you can't complete your stack but the fact that that dumb ass stomp de-aggros the creep UGH!

                                                    Frizbee Alert

                                                      In other news when's Dotabuff going to get a reply feature on their comment sections.

                                                      !@#

                                                        i think jungle is buffed , its mechanical cumback bro
                                                        i do it a lot of times

                                                        rape enemy in early stages , but my team dont want to invasion jungle , enemy can keep up with the tempo
                                                        and be rich easily when he afk jungling , xx minutes

                                                        in pro scene very different with pub or solo mmr under 6k

                                                        6k++ will invasion jungle 24/7 after they winning early game

                                                        under 6k , i bet , they will autism busy farming n do what they want

                                                        dota is about keep presure , if u winning early , dominating , keep pressure
                                                        make enemy stay under tow 3 , dont push the lane , coz it will give enemy farm , just farm at 2 jungle
                                                        radiant n dire jungle

                                                        thats what i learn , dota is about team work n momentum
                                                        u win early
                                                        u give the pressure

                                                        enemy can cumback very fast , with a lot of source in jungle

                                                        Anomalina`

                                                          https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3195538294

                                                          You got a jungle legion commander in your team? Well boo fucking hoo... Atleast he will get a 16 minute blink or a 20 minute shadow blade and go around the map duelling... This game I had a passively farming LC for THE ENTIRE GAME... And literally THE ENTIRE GAME... He didn't duel when he got blink, when he got blade mail, when he got BKB and took the jungle away from my safe lane solo morphling aginst a timbersaw who backdoored like an axe and I tanked creeps solo... What help did I get? A spirit breaker charging in at level 2 and dying repeatedly when I pinged him that timber has 20 armour stacks and to get back... Got called a noob and rage pinged... I muted him, ignored the LC, bought BOTs, fought around the map, had great game impact, baited the enemies' ultimates with LC's replicate and won the game... Tell me your excuse?

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                                                          supp0rt picker

                                                            Chen is back . really

                                                            i lab dinuguan

                                                              Jungle troll is for retards.

                                                              Nomad

                                                                читали бы это типы на 3к.
                                                                но нет, они идут афк лес, руинят лейнинг и игру целиком

                                                                dioxgamingpro

                                                                  stfu. all creep stacking are now 0:55 each .

                                                                  Unary

                                                                    Sometimes I checked a Dotabuff article just to read quality comments in a quality discussion.

                                                                    Mind

                                                                      plz stop jungleing
                                                                      dont start at jungle unless you are a roamer semi support like ench or SOMETIMES enigma NEVER lc axe unless you have STRONG offlaner like BB or Centaur

                                                                      -vinas

                                                                        2k comments everywhere

                                                                        hidden

                                                                          че за ебаный бред 1к уебища? все игры стали минимум 50 минут спасибо ебучая жаба и жирный габен. и доминация в начале это 80% луз так как система камбеков сделана чтобы любые мрази играли даже самые конченые. сколько я не убиваю и не тащу я один раз да сфижу и вся их тима начинает запаковываться и мне пизда. нету соляры больше в доте. ебучее скучное рандомное сражение

                                                                          Белый мотылек

                                                                            В каждой катке должен быть лесник!

                                                                            Ice Bear

                                                                              jungle suck, 70% will lose if got jungle hero early game, u will abandon your lane.

                                                                              21cm Pure Damage

                                                                                The StackingLord embraces the changes

                                                                                Sarllo

                                                                                  flash farmer are the kings now, luna, alchemist, andymage, sf.. also, with that massive buff to midlane, heroes like OD or SF get out of control really fast..

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