General Discussion

General DiscussionHow to lane vs WR as Brood (or any other hero)?

How to lane vs WR as Brood (or any other hero)? in General Discussion
VISHNU

    Like seriously. I get free farm, but she gets lvl 6, press R & I instantly die. It happens on so many heroes. How to deal with it? I can't tp out coz of shackle. Running away is also impossible because of that retarded slow from windrun. Most heroes just feed against it. Should I just abandon the lane after she gets 6? Even when I'm 2 lvls over her I die. She doesn't even have items when she kills me, just casual null + brown boots is enough. Just wtf.

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    LegendaryHD

      Broodmother with lots of spiders near her vs 1 boi shekels with 100% max stun.

      Kowareta

        dying to wr as brood , hilarious =))
        ur understanding of game is too high buddy.
        like why u are in lane as brood agaisnt a wr? do u have any kill potential? just push the lane and get back to the jungle till u farm ur items.

        VISHNU

          She doesn't even need to shackle me. She just runs at me with R, not even using shackle. I'm slowed so much that I can't even run away, nor tp out coz she still has shackle. I just can't get into a river or I'm dead. Do I just farm near my tower, and jungle, or is there any other better play?

          Asylum

            How is this ape Ancient 3?

            Kowareta

              did u even tried to watch a replay of high mmr brood vs wr matchup instead of posting here?
              we are not @GlimmeringSea buddy. we dont care and we dont want to explain obvious stuff to you.

              VISHNU

                @Kowareta - idk what's so hilarious about it. That was the first time I played that matchup, and I thought that there is no way she can kill me in 3-4s with no items, when I just go into the river. I even wasn't playing aggressively, coz I knew I can't kill her. I tried to get my orchid first. I'm asking about real solutions, and best plays. The only thing I can think right now is jungle, and rotate to lane when creeps are near my tower. But there might be a better solution, and I'm missing it.

                Kowareta

                  oh so u couldnt predict u cant kill her cause windrun and still u run into her and let her ult u.
                  i dont know
                  maybe this is not hilarious!

                  VISHNU

                    ^Asylum - nice 47% win-rate.

                    VISHNU

                      @Kowareta - I rarely play vs WR mid, and if I play it's mostly as Meepo (when she ultis me I just poof to other meepo). I thought she wouldn't have dmg to kill me when I'm just in river (I didn't go on her hg). I knew I had no way to kill her without orchid, so I wanted to farm it asap. I'm asking for a specific solution, not the obvious one - stay near tower, and farm jungle. If you don't have answer, don't waste my time. I know Brood has so many ways to be played in the early game (cutting creep waves, farming enemy jungle, going for kill at lvl 3 etc.), or maybe should I get stout+medalion (will it help?).

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                      Tsuya!!

                        The best way to figure out counters is by playing the hero yourself. Try 20 games of wind or so and you'll know exactly what she's weak to.

                        Also you have a lot of "normal skill" games which should be super easy to win with brood, no matter if there's a windrunner or not.

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                        VISHNU

                          @Tsuya - I'm learning her on another account, I want to master her. I agree that winning as brood in that skill bracket is not hard, I won 6/7 games (only lost to that WR), and I got countered in every game. I just want to learn how to play matchups as brood, coz I lack experience. This hero is very complex, the more I play her, the more I think she is actually the most complex hero in Dota in terms of laning phase.

                          Glimmer of Dawn

                            Honestly I’m quite surprised that your posts seem quite balanced and nice enough, even though you have the matchup backwards.

                            Broodmother should shit all over windrunner. But I’m sure you don’t want my advice, since cancer got to me already ^^

                            VISHNU

                              @Glimmering - of course I want advice from Glimmering Sea-sama. Don't lose hope, cancer can be cured :) I'm also cancer Meepo spammer ;)

                              Kowareta

                                Pathetic. UGH

                                Glimmer of Dawn

                                  First piece of advice would be to respect the support role more. From what I can see, you prefer high impact core heroes like Storm, Meepo, MK, Tinker. The kinds that can solo carry games if you’re given a good enough start. And also a mid specialist. Fair enough.

                                  In that case as a support I’m thinking, this guy can probably solo carry if I give him a hand. I’ll clarity you when you’re jungle farming as storm. I’ll tp refill your bottle, smoke gank to get your storm spirit started, keep my tp available to save you from the opposing supports.

                                  If I have a MK who is 4-0, i’ll sit behind them and play around them. I’ll add a powershot to any kill he goes for, making his life easier and getting me some assist gold.

                                  Long story short, be nice to your supports. You may want to solo carry your team, and you might be good at it, but encouraging your supports by communicating with them and thanking them for their efforts will make your job easier and your performances better.

                                  Glimmer of Dawn

                                    In terms of midlane, it is important to analyse what each hero is capable of and compare how they matchup.

                                    In general the aspects I consider are laning capability, neutral game, pushing and lategame potential.

                                    Laning capability are things like animation, lh damage, nukes, defensive options. Laning strength.

                                    Neutral game is farm rate, ability to go to jungle, ability to stack jungle whilst laning, ability to push wave.

                                    Pushing is ability to nuke wave, push tower.

                                    Lategame potential is self explanatory.

                                    Comparing these aspects allows you to judge in which ways you can “win mid”

                                    Tsuya!!

                                      Hi glimmering sea chan can you analyze my profile like you did his?

                                      VISHNU

                                        @Glimmering Sea - tbh I kinda trolled a little bit in that thread, that's not what I fully believe in. I really think it's easier to climb as a support because there is a worse competition, but it doesn't mean support is easier to play at a good level. It was kinda directed to supports that believe they buy wards, and all their work is done, and every lose they blame mid/carry. I like to play high impact heroes because I want to take responsibility for my game. I don't feel like I have it when playing other lanes. I also tend to blame others, but at least on mid I have some kind of security that if I'm good I can solo carry the game. Sadly I'm still quite shit, but I try to become good. You have a nice mindset "sitting behind core that is doing well", sadly at Ancient bracket people don't think this way, or they don't think about "game winning hero", but I guess that's why they're still Ancient, so kinda hard to blame them for being bad (I'm bad too).

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                                        Glimmer of Dawn

                                          I’ll keep posting btw just gonna be a while.

                                          @Tsuya
                                          Sure your profile looks ridiculously amazing- you are a great position 1 player. You seem well balanced in mentality in life too :)

                                          I’d be interested to see how you do on support. I was mid main for my team before transitioning to support, and I learned a lot on support.

                                          Glimmer of Dawn

                                            Ok VISHNU that makes sense. Thanks for explaining :) i’ll keep writing after dinner.

                                            I’d be concerned that your winrates for your main heroes are not amazing. I think having good winrates on your main heroes is important. Shows discipline and consistent improvement, and as I always say focus on winrate and not individual games.

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                                            VISHNU

                                              So if I try to apply what you wrote to WR vs Brood:

                                              WR has a good way to secure range creep, strong defensive capability (windrun), good depush, decent lh dmg.
                                              Her neutral game is average. Pushing waves she is good, but not great, and pushing tower without ulti is quite bad.

                                              Brood has a better last hit dmg (when using spiders), has a reliable nuke to secure last hits, is v. fast on web, and can abuse terrain. Her neutral game is top tier, probably the best in the game (on par with Meepo). She can't nuke waves, but she can kill the wave quite fast with a lot of spiders. Pushing towers is good, and with lvl 20 talent one of the best in the game.

                                              So in theory I can outdeny WR early on (I have more dmg), and quite high hp regen so harassing by her is not such a big deal. However, is it worth to deny her? If I deny her I lose potential farm in the jungle, and my items timing are gonna be slower. She still can do stuff with little farm, and still probably can kill me even at lvl disadvantage if I'm too far in the river. After the laning phase I should just abuse my farming speed, and outfarm WR, and try to put pressure on the towers but without committing too hard (she can kill me with little farm). So I guess after laning stage plan is quite simple, but I still don't know if it's a correct plan. Maybe there is a better way to play it.

                                              Tsuya!!

                                                U keep forcing windrun in lane by sending spiders
                                                And at some point she gets tired of not csing with wr on cd and you kill her

                                                Tips from my immortal brood friend

                                                Kowareta

                                                  u can deny and farm jungles at same time.
                                                  guess how?
                                                  its called micro management :)
                                                  u could just watch 3 brood vs wr game till now and learn much more,
                                                  whole problem here is , u cant think for ur self, u need someone else confirm your thoughts. just be confident bruh!

                                                  VISHNU

                                                    About the win-rates I'm not sure how much are they related to me, and how much to the previous owner, and how many to party games where I didn't care much. I had a 2y break from Dota, and gifted my friend my main account (he ruined it to the point of 100 Behavior score). It was also much higher mmr than I gave him (I was 4-4.5k player back then, and he got it to 5.5k mmr). So I bought 2k account, and got it to 3.7k now. However, I guess my win-rates could be higher. I'm actually shocked they're so low, esp. Storm that I had like 400 games on my main back then, Tinker 300 games, and OD was one of my best heroes. Arc win-rate is low coz it took me quite a lot of time to not be garbage (he was also my first micro hero, and I was aweful at microing). But I guess still even including this my win-rates should be higher.

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                                                    VISHNU

                                                      @Kowareta - I don't know how can I do it. I watched some VODs from boosters, and I didn't see anyone play that matchup. If you have a good way to find such replays please share it. I don't think my confidence is a problem here. I just don't have enough knowledge, confidence won't replace knowledge, instead (at my lvl) it can only result in Dunning Kruger.

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                                                      Kowareta

                                                        what is the thing u cant do? thinking? xD
                                                        did u even tried to use ur brain?

                                                        Kowareta

                                                          there is two kind of spiders that brood produce
                                                          one the weak ones -> spiderite
                                                          one the strong ones -> spiderling

                                                          u can bind 2 key to them, and farm jungle with strongones meanwhile deny the lane with weak ones.
                                                          or bait enemies like tiny , tinker, mk, ... to use spells on weak ones, then eating them with strong ones.

                                                          but only players who care this much and trying this hard, playing on ti next day bruh.
                                                          i dont know why u are looking for perfectness, just play better and win. who cares what is the best scenario!!!!

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                                                          VISHNU

                                                            What is your problem? Why so much flaming? You flame me that I don't watch this matchup, but you also can't provide any resources. Your solution is only partially good - you don't get xp from the jungle, you kill camps way slower, and good nukes instantly kill spiderites (they have only 100hp, 0 armor, 40% MR). From what I've noticed one of the strongest brood's advantage is great xpm, compared to Meepo. You deny it for some denies on mid. Tbh I'm not sure if it's worth it.

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                                                            Glimmer of Dawn

                                                              Just take it easy with Kowareta. He’s prone to posting inflammatory stuff, but he’s quite smart and generally harmless. I’ve learned to not take it personally.

                                                              Okay, I understand you bought this account. Don’t know why you didn’t just start a new one but hey. In that case I would use filtering to keep track of your stats. I find that filtering by last month and this ranked season to be very useful, as well as solo vs party when analysing my stats.

                                                              You seem to have some really good aspects to your thinking- I liked how you took it upon yourself to analyse the matchup whilst I was gone. That shows you’re a proactive and independent thinker. You also take personal responsibility for your game impact and want people in your game to do the same.

                                                              However, I’ve noticed you also can spread blame when games don’t go your way. Wanting to go solo carry and getting annoyed about supps with bad mentality is understandable but will not help you climb. Also, I can tell you aren’t the calmest person. You are letting one guy on the internet upset your chill and I suspect the same thing happens in your ranked games.

                                                              Staying calm and analysing what you can do better will allow you to climb and avoid tilt.

                                                              Kowareta

                                                                hilarious. =))
                                                                how u are losing xpm when u are farming with strong ones in jungle? =))))

                                                                Glimmer of Dawn

                                                                  Ok so let’s talk about the different categories of mid and winning mid.

                                                                  In general, you can win mid by being ahead of the other mid by gold and xp. Mid tower is also the most important tower in the game so killing tower is also useful.

                                                                  However there are some exceptions. Eg some heroes can just back off and farm jungle, like viper, so they don’t really care, or alchemist who can do the same, but also alchemist needs more gold to be useful than opposing mid, so if he is equal gold he has lost mid.

                                                                  So let’s analyse the factors:

                                                                  Laning capability- has the most impact at the beginning of lane. It affects your ability to create a lh/deny gap. Ability to secure ranged creep is important.

                                                                  Neutral game- ability to stack and be efficient in jungle, means that some heroes don’t care if they have worse laning capability. They will just push lane and go jungle to get more gold and xp than enemy mid.

                                                                  Pushing- allows you to secure runes by pushing wave, harassing opponent whilst pushing creeps is efficient, allows you to create spare time to go jungle as well as lane. Ties down enemy mid to defending t1. Allows you to punish people who lose mid and goes ganking by taking their tower.

                                                                  Lategame potential- security for lategame. Lategame balance- who wins lategame? The early game team has pressure on them to group up and attack, to start taking towers.

                                                                  Any hero that is good lategame has more reason to stay mid and keep farming. Any hero that is worse lategame has more reason to push enemy towers for space or rotate and gank the sidelanes.

                                                                  CAESAR KING OF APES

                                                                    ^true. Tilt is my biggest enemy. I probably put too much pressure on myself when playing. I might blame others, but I tend to blame myself the most. I’m ashamed of my mmr & gameplay when I compare myself to immortal+ players. Whenever I lose I blame myself that a booster would have won it. I try to chill, but I can’t. This is probably the worst aspect of my game. If I could be consistent I would probably be already back to my peak mmr. I also play too much party, and low ranked other accounts, which hurt my game vs better players.

                                                                    Glimmer of Dawn

                                                                      Your analysis of the matchup between wr and brood is really good now, pretty much spot on. A few specifics which you are missing though:

                                                                      Powershot’s damage reduces by 20% (multiplicatively) for every unit hit. This means that the damage for powershot goes from
                                                                      OP to negligible after passing through spiders, which may provide some additional farm but they have mr anyway. This means spiders are great at pressuring windrunner to use her windrun at inopportune moments.

                                                                      Windrun goes from a 20% uptime at level 1 to 50% uptime at level 4, due to both duration and cd scaling with levels. That means that you can pressure the windrunner a lot during the spell’s downtime. Windrun also represents a huge part of her trading potential, due to powershot being bad in the matchup.

                                                                      Shackleshot is a good tool but with good micro it should be hard to shackle from spider onto hero. It is much easier to shackle brood onto a tree so watch out for that. Running at windrunner with spiders to force out E, then farm when she uses it. If she walks forward before E cooldown, just dive her with spiders and hero.

                                                                      I’ve faced down leaderboards broods with my windrunner and it’s so scary. Go for medallion to take advantage of wr’s low armor. I’ve had a brood get 2 levels ahead of me and dive past t1, t2 and t3 at minute 8, my teammates didn’t blame me. I became 3 position and we won an epic game.

                                                                      Brood went for medallion diffu orchid build.

                                                                      Glimmer of Dawn

                                                                        Ironically, my advice to you is the opposite of what i would to others. Put less pressure on yourself. It’s a teamgame and you need to trust your teammates more.

                                                                        I recommend spending a week or two playing solo ranked. Watch your replays back and be analytical and honest about what can be done better. Learn to tell the difference between games you need to yolo to win and games where you can be conservative and still win.

                                                                        Most importantly: do what i do.

                                                                        When you are worried about tilt, stand up, stretch, get a coffee. Talk to a friend and chill out. Don’t hit search.

                                                                        Don’t watch booster games and try to copy them, they aren’t representative of most dota games. Watch high skill pubs where people play even skilled lanes because that’s realistic.

                                                                        VISHNU

                                                                          Ok. Thank you for a lot of effort you put into this. It helped me a lot.

                                                                          Glimmer of Dawn

                                                                            You’re welcome. I hope it helps :)

                                                                            I always have more tips but that’s enough for now. Most important thing is changing your mentality to blame less and enjoy yourself more. I suspect this is true for your life generally.

                                                                            Hit me up if you wanna talk more anytime.

                                                                            Kowareta

                                                                              It’s a teamgame and you need to trust your teammates more.

                                                                              ahahaha, nice joke.
                                                                              my last solo ranked game, we didnt had lastpick mid so i picked on 3th and said to them, now u can have goodlanes on top and bot cause they will pick before u! then our pos 1 said "suggest me heroes" and after that he added "im shit at all heroes"
                                                                              despite all of that, we lost both top and bot and only mid was won. hilarious!

                                                                              that guy who were shit at all heroes, he picked void and after every die he rage buybacked =)))))))
                                                                              at the end void pinged me cause i were afk, and said "reported druid , afk"
                                                                              i got 4 report (deserved) just cause i proved them such a waste of flesh they are :))

                                                                              Kowareta

                                                                                the biggest problem with this teacher is, he has no idea what is going on in lower than 5k mmr games.

                                                                                Glimmer of Dawn

                                                                                  This is why I say play the winrate game.

                                                                                  Wagamama pointed out that everyone has to deal with the same idiots in their team. Just because you can only see your team’s retardation doesn’t mean the other side is any better.

                                                                                  The only thing you can affect is yourself and your mentality. If you are positive and communicative maybe you can encourage your teammates to do the same as well.

                                                                                  But the reality is you are the only thing that will affect your winrate and behaviour score.

                                                                                  You make it sound like 5k games are cancer free. I’ve had cores who tilt and go and chain feed and I’m like well, can’t do anything about that.

                                                                                  I even had a game where my
                                                                                  mid kunkka dropped all items on ground and said in all chat “get me out”. I picked them up with courier and begged him to keep playing, and was encouraging. I micro’d the courier to give him items.

                                                                                  The enemy then dived past t3 onto t4s and they threw up high ground. We eventually won that game. I thanked the mid kunkka after the game for playing on.

                                                                                  The difference with me is that I don’t let my teammates affect me and tilt me to ruin my winrate. If I tilt, I don’t play. I wait till I’m calm and then I search. And I focus on the next games which I can win.

                                                                                  People often notice the games where their teammates act like retards and they lose. But they rarely notice the games where the enemy team has retards and they instead win.

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                                                                                  Kowareta

                                                                                    ya ya, im ok with 1-2 retard in game, but when i see 4 retard in same team, well im going into ghoul mode.

                                                                                    like im the strongest hero in game and im asking 2 sup to play around me and let pressure towers and make space for our 2 cores,
                                                                                    but meanwhile not even these 2 subanimals understand and listen, my void dying solo to a ns and rage buybacking, and enemy ganking me with 3 heroes.

                                                                                    im so glad made one of them quit dota and playing LoL instead, cause u know , we are toxic community.
                                                                                    just i wonder, why i have 1 of 10 toxic games , and he has 10 of 10.
                                                                                    he is not the reason ppl flaming, not at all, he just plays like 3k mmr lower than others . smileyface

                                                                                    cancer free ? no, but less retards. retarded teammate is not tilting, losing a game is not tilting but when u are top networth and have 2k gold difference to a last pick mid @10 min and u losing game cause, "we are run out of humans this game , we match u with 4 subhumans" . it hurts more than anything.

                                                                                    Meia Vida

                                                                                      I cant believe how toxic is the community these days, the guy made an valid question, and everybody started shitting about the post.
                                                                                      Actually, if u dont play Brood very well, wind can be a VERY hard lane to deal, u should rush malevolance and hide in trees, make an army of spiders, and when she advances in lane, jump from the trees, malevolance before she pops windrun and kill.
                                                                                      What i found quite bad against Wind is diffusal blade, because all the slow time will be blocked by windrun. Thats it mboi.

                                                                                      Glimmer of Dawn

                                                                                        Be like Yoshimura.

                                                                                        Channel your anger for good.

                                                                                        severe

                                                                                          no point sitting in lane vs wr, it just delays ur own items
                                                                                          u can walk behind tower and kill creeps > farm camps on enemy jg until u have enough items to walk out

                                                                                          Kowareta

                                                                                            i rather be myself

                                                                                            Talker

                                                                                              How can you lose against WR as brood? Laning stage is heavily pro-brood.

                                                                                              You have kill potential all laning stage, you are probably just not aggressive enough. You just have to be ready to dive tower and switch aggro so tower doesnt attack your hero. And even when WR has javelin your spiders will probably kill her after she kills you - and you can be on her side of river and just hide in trees there, if needed or between T1 and T2.

                                                                                              Generally the idea is to go for WR to force her to use windrun even on lvl 3-4 (once you have decent spider army). Once she uses windrun, you go back and you have 10 seconds after it (if she has lvl 2) to kill her. Same as with medusa, you bait defensive skill and you kill her. If you have enough spiders, you just keep killing her even under tower and WR cant do anything. As well,WR cant clear spiders (or not huge amount of them), so you can protect your ranged creep against power shot and deny it yourself.

                                                                                              Generally this matchup is heavily on the side of brood I think, if you are aggressive and pushing towers. As well, WR doesnt have farming ability at all, so she has really hard time to catch up.

                                                                                              If you have bad lane or you are too passive to dive WR, you can just go between T1 and T2 once you have couple of spiders and kill the wave there, kill neutrals and keep repeating and she will probably lose 20% of HP tanking every wave of neutrals or have to drag them to you, which means she will be losing some creeps and still getting some damage from them. And if she ulties you, go into trees/on HG and TP to safety/triangle, farm it a bit and move back. She doesnt have kill potential for another 50 seconds.

                                                                                              Like honestly, brood is one of the worst match ups for WR, because he can kill her anytime (if he is aggressive and skilled enough) and run down T1 and T2. Other bad matchups are tinker (who has 100% evasion) and OD (who can decline me all the windrun). And all three have ability to deny a lot of creeps from WR as well.

                                                                                              If you cant destroy WR during first 10 minutes you are useless for rest of the game, because she can kill you anytime she meets you. Kill her couple of times, force her out of the lane and keep pushing lane into T2 while farming neutrals. WR cant do anything to Brood untill she has items.

                                                                                              Desephviasco

                                                                                                Holy shit this glimmering sea is too good for this shit forum. The only downside is he is filthy WR spammer

                                                                                                Glimmer of Dawn

                                                                                                  Eh I played this hero ever since she was a pile of shit. I remember the days when windrun was 100 mana, and ult cost 300 mana, and powershot did less damage, and shackleshot cost more mana, and you had to stand still while ulting, and windrun didn’t disjoint projectiles already in midair, etc etc etc.

                                                                                                  No one called me filthy then. And now people have finally woken up to her being powerful.

                                                                                                  *shrugs*

                                                                                                  Good thing I don’t care what people on the internet think about me ^^

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                                                                                                  CAESAR KING OF APES

                                                                                                    Actually WR was my first hero. I think I only played her for like first 100-200 games. I liked her a lot till they overbuffed her, and made total cancer recently. She is in every game, and no matter how bad the player is, she always have impact with v. little items, and if not countered in the drafting phase, she is often a free win. Being able to run with ulti made her a cancer.

                                                                                                    Glimmer of Dawn

                                                                                                      My tips against wr:

                                                                                                      1. She’s a vision hero. Focus on denying her vision.
                                                                                                      2. She doesn’t farm very fast. Outfarm her and set up vision to avoid giving her kills.
                                                                                                      3. As a core she needs to get something out of lane. Put a hero against her that can shit on her like Lina, who can nuke her, stun her and push out waves better than her.
                                                                                                      4. Abuse her cd on windrun when it’s low level.
                                                                                                      5. Most wr’s build magic heavy. Focus on bkb and hood of defiance defence against her.
                                                                                                      6. Use strats that can run at her. All her spells are better if she’s running at you than away from you.
                                                                                                      7. Have some stun that can punish her using windrun to trade instead of running away.
                                                                                                      8. Profit.

                                                                                                      Marshadow

                                                                                                        “Pick ember rape wr hard” - Feachairu <3