General DiscussionHow to keep up with the farm as support?

Again, sorry for my inevitable Grammar mistakes

IDK about all that but I want to play with you, seems like you win games for your team.

While being flattered, I have to disagree with you, a lot of times on the games which are favored to the enemies I find myself really impactless. And having hard time correctly positioning myself against ganks. A lot of my loses I am a major factor in the enemies farm advantage

you simply don't, unless there's a free wave and no one is planning to fight, you simply don't farm.

supports are made to create opportunities for their teammates to get farm, if your teammates are farming then you're winning.

I understand that it's my role to create space rather than absorbing it

But watching higher skill brackets play (not speaking about pros which usually have extreme farm differences, and also know to play by powerspikes and prioritizing support farm for them), I find that they constantly finding space that otherwise would be wasted while not sacrificing too much space and pressure on the enemies

I just can't find myself come across that farm

if you have a min 23 tranquils you are doing smth wrong though. just stacking and then pulling creeps and then last hitting them should get you enough farm for tranquils

stop trying to play a support like a core, no high mmr player wastes time on a support trying to find farm

they use their time trying to find ganks, ward, deward, smokes, counterganks etc.

you know, support stuff.

only time a support is given some farm time is when it's near a key core item like blink or glimmer.

if you want a better networth as a support then be better at ganking and teamfighting.

Well yea that is why i ask in first place, my severe lack of farm

And you can't really stack and pull if you're constantly switching between babysitting mid (hey I'm lich, if my bloodseeker can have 2 levels advantage over the sniper enemy, fuck sign me up), pressuring the enemy junger (in 2k17 LUL and other twitch memes) and rotating to safe lane and offlane when they have troubles. That's kinda hard to pull off stacking and pulling

I watched your replay, and here's my advice, though it's mostly Lich-specific advice.

-sacrifice is off cooldown way too much, your second sacrifice was off cooldown for a whole 15 seconds despite the fact that you were in lane standing next to creeps the whole time
-there were even times where you were on very low mana with a siege creep next to you that you didn't even eat, the exp difference is negligible, but the mana gained is massive
-Lich is dedicated lane support, do not go around running from lane to lane trying to gank unless you're with another hero where it's a near guaranteed kill, you should soak up as much exp early on so you can reach lvl 3 to get sacrifice at 2
-your frost blast was also off cooldown too much when you had full mana
-you need to maximize your harass with frost blast, frost blast slows both attack speed and movement speed, so that your target can't really run away nor trade hits very well for a whole 4 seconds, attack move as much as possible after frost blasts
-you're delaying your items too much, you should get tranquil boots in under 10 minutes, you keep buying wards and smokes you aren't using and even delaying your brown boots
-too many pointless rotations, you keep running back and forth between lanes to do nothing, this is especially bad because you're maxing out sacrifice first, so your ganks do almost nothing because you just pop a weak frost blast, then contribute nothing except slowly right-clicking your targets
-you should only max sacrifice first in scenarios like solo offlane, where you'll get a massive exp advantage from being solo, which is further amplified by continuously sacrificing creeps much more frequently than lane support lich. You were running between lanes and always had sacrifice off cooldown even at lower levels when sacrifice cooldown is huge, so you leveling up sacrifice first was useless
-if you're trying to gank, time your abilities properly so that you can sacrifice between frost blasts to ensure the most damage possible from ganks, you almost always try to gank with half mana, toss 1 frost blast, then are completely out of mana
-you are too reactive and not proactive enough, you often times see a teammate getting ganked halfway across the map, then run to help despite obviously not being able to make it in time
-always, always max frost blast first as lane support lich, this is why lich is so overpowered, because you just can continuously spam a 350 damage nuke at enemies when they're barely even level 6. There are very few heroes which can deal with being spammed with frost blasts, with the exceptions of some heroes like Void
-extremely poorly timed smokes, you smoked when your ult cooldown was only at 20 seconds, even then you just walked straight up to the enemy team from the front, rendering smoke useless
-too many mid game deaths as a result of your lack of items. The enemy WD had an aghs, force staff, and half of a shivas by the time you only had a stick, tranquils, and a raindrop
-I can't re-iterate how much you're messing this part up, but you're maxing out sacrifice first, but you're always low on mana near creeps when it's off cooldown, there were so many instances where you didn't have the mana to ult because you keep forgetting to sacrifice. You cannot keep forgetting to use your abilities, especially on such a simple hero like Lich where half your abilities are spammed before fights.
-huge mistake with lvl 20 talent, you do not grab the damage when you are walking around with nothing but tranquils and a force staff. You can barely use a frost blast and your ult before you get completely destroyed in teamfights
-awful positioning throughout the whole game, you keep stick to an isolated allied hero, especially Ursa, so you frequently let WD stun you guys.
-you used force staff a grand total of 2 times, neither times helped to accomplish anything

Your job is to shit on the enemy lanes by spamming frost blast and continuously sacrificing ranged creeps, then to rush tranquils to ensure that you're completely self-sufficient for both health and mana. Lich's strength is that he almost always guarantees that he wins his lane.

Wow, thank you for the heavy analysis, I really should be less aggressive in lane and keep babysitting I guess.
At a certain point I told them I am going to stay in the mid lane and keep the super creeps from getting in while they push the side lanes, that the sole reason for my level 20 talents

I was kinda pressured by the bloodseeker to put a third point in sacrifice, in hindsight I really wasted it since I didn't use the sacrifice nearly to its full potential

I am by no mean perfect, and I'm glad to hear such analysis, thank you for taking your time help me, I'll keep this in mind :D

Also yea my smokes were terrible, but I actually blame my teams for some of them, since a lot of times I find them isolated (mainly the ursa) while having a power spike, so a lot of the smokes were used on the times where i could actually gather the team

Don't overthink Lich too much, part of why he has such a high winrate is because of how simple and straightforward he is. Just stay in a lane to spam sacrifice and frost blast. EQEQQRQ is usually a good build to go, you most likely don't need early points of frost armor at lower MMR brackets. Just nuke and eat, nuke and eat. Don't be afraid to go a little more greedy either, starting with tangos and a windlace will still allow you to buy both observer wards and the courier, and allows you to finish tranquils through the sideshop. You won't need to buy items like salves if you can finish your tranquils early.

Well i bought 1 salve and used it on another hero actually

And if I buy windlace, tango, courier and 2 wards, isn't the smoke cd wasted?

Don't overthink things like that. Chances are you're not going to pull off a successful smoke gank, especially not as Lich. Just stomp your lane hard, don't focus on ganking as Lich, tp if the enemy starts diving, but your priority should be to spam sacrifice and to harass out a hero with your frost blasts. Lich should be a little greedy early sometimes in terms of early levels.

I'm still learning basic mechanics I guess

Anyway srsly thank you for taking your time to analyze a trench tier game for the sake of helping someone you don't know. I'll keep it in mind :D

You don't.

I don't?
Well I guess I'm not thanking you potato, simba doesn't allow me

theres one thing i noticed with high mmr supports is that they dont spend reliable gold on consumables which significantly improves their economy...not sure if this was just a coincidence or if its for real....need someone to confirm

one thing to expand on what Potato Marshal was saying: Not every support is intended to do every job. Lich is better at lane dominating and counterganking. He is not good at roaming and setting up early ganks. Similarly Spirit breaker is great at early roaming and ganking but makes a terrible lane support/babysitter. I'm not saying Lich can't ever gank, but its not as efficient a use of his skills as it is for SB.
Play to your heroes strengths. Each support is different and while they often all do similar things they can't be played the same.

well thats the difficult part of the support. its like same think as a carry actually, everyone can jsut afk farm , or jsut keep fighting and looking for kills and falling behind in farm, a good carry knows how to farm, while also being active in map, and presuring the enemy . same thing is for supports, anyone can keep runing around the map and finding some kills, especially if you have a support with high gank potential, but to be a good support you need to take that cover and alos know how to keep up with levels and farm , even if you not being succesful in your ganks, its not always posible to kill enemies . even supports same as carries have thery power spikes item related, but yeah some games its not possible for a pos 5 espeically to not get even 1 complete item maybe , cause cores always have priorites. at lower mmr 4k below you can be farmed as fuck as a support, the time that you have fre lanes to farm cause carries farming jungle instead is so huge, and also farming enemy heroes and geting a shit tons of random kills cause of enemies constantly being out of position or run at you and feed theyr budy when you jsut runing back and they die under tower liek retards, that shit will boost your gold a lot. at lower mmr its a normal think if as a support i solo kill enemy carry at 55 min mark of the game lul.

yeah where did yo uget this lul. how can you know that? like how can you know , ' if rain is created by clouds, it will fall down into earth? how can you know that? waht kind of genius are you ? jsut cause you not named tripple retard doesnt mean you genius brah lol.

This is a hard question to answer.
Game sense has a lot to do with it, as well as what support your are playing, and what heroes you are playing against.
Let's say you are a shadow shaman, you have good wave clear with your q, so every once in awhile you may be able to get a few cs here and there while you are warding around the map, or going to group up with your team, however, lets say there is a slark on the enemy team. If the slark has a brain he will feed off of you getting greedy for cs.
Then comes the decision you have to make, get some cs and risk feeding the enemy carry, or stay broke while your carry farms.
With good sense you will find good times to get your 100 gold here and there.
Then there are supports like bane where you will never be able to farm waves easily. You will be broke unless you are getting kills with your carry.

By pulling creep in Lane, finding successfully gank, and not dying.

Full time support here, aside from obvious things to do like pulling, ganking and not dying, I usually farm whenever my team doesnt combat or is able to. Just one or 2 creepwaves is enough occasionally, don't be afraid to use your mana if you have items to sustain it. Also if your tp is cd and you are too far from the fight, farm and push the lane, force the enemy to defend their tower, that's another way of helping.

My heroes are Lion, Shadow Shaman and CM as position 5; ES as position 4, these heroes all have skills to farm effectively as well as being suitable with the current META.