Relentless, before you start such a massive debate, can you please define clearly what you mean by "mechanical skill". because from reading your post it seems you are referring to a lot of different skill sets - some of which you could argue are not really "mechanical" in nature. you seem to talk about execution; perhaps you are thinking about the speed at which a better player executes, or the speed at which his visual processing is far superior that he is able to execute at a far greater speed with better perfection.
but i think you are missing out a very big part of the equation by saying that a quick execution is synonymous with mechanical skill. for me when i observe good players execute their plays, i do not see it as due to mechanical skill. I would argue that if i knew exactly what to do in a similar situation (with 6k coach telling me what to do) i could with a bit of practice, execute just as perfectly.
However, i would need a 6k coach telling me what to do. He would need to recognise opportunities with his superior game knowledge and tell me that hey, I could actually get this kill and snowball. If i had a 6k whispering in my ear, i think my winrate would significantly go up, even if my mechanical skill stayed the same. the problem is not that i'm slow in recognising opportunities and executing plays, it would be that i don't recognise opportunities at all (due to a lack of game experience, game knowledge - qualities i would argue that YOU overlook as being important for winning).
so what i mean is that im probably more limited by my game knowledge, than by my mechanical skill. I would argue that most ppl who don't improve are in fact limited by their game knowledge. because i feel dota is not as mechanically-oriented as say, SC2. you don't need to be mechanically gifted to play this game at a high level. but you do need to know a lot about strategy.
you talk about strategies - split pushing, smoke ganks, TPing, as though they are common knowledge. in low mmr games, all heroes are always showing in lane. if you were a better player, games would be so easy because you know where everyone is at all times. no one hides behind carries. is that a failure of game sense/strategy, or mechanical skill???
you honestly think that just because 1k mmr know what true sight is that they know how to incorporate it into their strategy? in 1kmmr, they probably start buying detection too late in a game, or buy it and use their wards haphazardly - what have all these have to do with mechanical skill? And yet, all these things affect the game and a team's ability to deal with invis heroes. it has nothing to do with mechanical execution, when a lot of DOTA is about preempting ganks (say a moonlight shadow gank, so you preemptively put down a sentry ward that saves your team and turns the fight. what has that got to do with mechanical skill?
why does a team with a nightstalker with aghs ganking during nighttime, win against a team with similar mechanical skill? they keep fighting them during night time and simply have not learned how vision strategically puts them at a disadvantage. I would argue they are limited by their ability to understand concepts in dota that keeps them at that mmr range.
you talk about failures to properly gank as a mechanical failure. but i would argue that in 1kmmr, failure to gank is not largely mechanical. i've seen 1kmmr games and their failure is usually always strategic. for example, a player's team just got wiped - 4 dead, and this player still casually walks in to try and get a kill on a low hp support - and just dies. you telling me that that's a failure to mechanically execute? or just poor ass game sense?
you assume that every1 has the same knowledge they need to win the game, and its all about execution. but that is so so wrong. i think you need to clearly define what u mean by mechanical skill, because you seem to think strategy and game sense is determined by mechanical skill in some way. but i think u need to not mix up the 2 concepts.
I'm saying that the reason a typical 1k player exhibits what you might interpret as "poor game sense" is really because the game is too fast for them.
As you know, if the 6k player explains to them what to do they could play at a much higher level... but only while being coached.
It is important to realize that there are those who are merely inexperienced but are actually able to process the information and move their fingers... those people happen be low MMR but will rise. However, most people will not. Most people will stay low MMR despite being told the same things over and over and over.
Understand most of them are not "stupid" in the sense that they could not function in daily life. Nor are they "stupid" in the sense that they could not understand, watching a replay in slow motion, what they did wrong and could have done better. But in the moment, at game speed, they cannot process and react to it.
While you, if you are a Dotabuff sort of person, probably can improve a lot... many people you play with and against can't. They are casual players because getting good is not important to them. But what people often forget is how people focus on, really spend time on, those things at which they are talented and succeed easily.
This will limit different people at different levels. If you have not spent a thousand games tryharding to max out your MMR you are unlikely to run into your personal limitations. But if you do, you will realize after a while that you reach a point beyond which you can't pass because the game speed at that MMR is just too fast for you. You will see that you make a lot more misclicks because you had to do something in 0.3 seconds and you normally take 0.4 seconds to do it. Trying to speed up to match the skill of that MMR, you misclick a higher % of the time because you just can't do it that fast.
At 1k MMR players usually appear to have terrible map awareness. This is largely because they cannot process the mini-map in a glance. They cannot notice a hero next to them in less than 1 second. It's like they are very drunk (compared to excellent players).
It is much easier to see and understand this if you watch better players than yourself than if you watch worse players. When you see worse players screwing up you can imagine they were not thinking... its hard to imagine thinking slower. But when you watch players way, way better than you doing things so fast you maybe can't even see them at regular speed...then you begin to realize they are seeing, processing, and acting faster.
When I watch a 7k player play dota from their perspective I usually cannot see their item checks. If I slow it down to 1/4 speed on the replay, then I can see their item checks. How do they click on the enemy hero, understand the items they have, and click back before I can see it happen? When I see a 1k MMR player do an item check (and they do use item checks) they often missclick a few times trying to select the hero, then they have to watch for 2 to 3 seconds to comprehend the items, then they typically have lost track of where their hero is and struggle for another couple seconds trying to find it.
The 1k MMR player, while some are truly just nubs, most can't have map awareness because they cannot see the mini-map while doing anything else. If they are moving their hero - they don't see the map - they may not see even the lane next to them. It's not possible for them to see both. Watch a 1k MMR player, they will often stand still for multiple seconds deciding what to do.... not waiting for something. Watch them shop and see how very long they take to click on items in the shop.
If a coach instructed a talented, but merely inexperienced player they rapidly improve. If a coach instructs an ordinary player, they will only do well while the coach is telling them what to do constantly. This is not merely true in dota, but in everything. Most people will never "get it". They can only be hand-held through processes they don't understand, would never imagine themselves, can't adjust or adapt, and will quickly forget what they learned.
For some people that might be in math, or writing, or music, or basketball, or fishing or whatever. But most people really can't learn a lot of things. The things they are good at doing, they pick up immediately and probably think are "easy" and wonder how others could possibly not learn them.... meanwhile in their weak areas they are bored because they fail.
For YOU the reader. If YOU feel like you have room to grow you probably do. But remember that eventually you will hit a ceiling. You will know you are close when the game starts to feel to fast. There is never a point where you are not gaining MMR because of "your team sucks". If you were better, you would win anyway. There is no trench. If you think that what needs to be done to win is impossible, you may be partially right... but only impossible for you, not impossible in general.
If you use a coach, spam your best hero, buy an account, smurf to the highest possible MMR etc... you will put yourself in a situation where the game is too fast for you and you will consistently win less than 50% of games until you have dropped back to a level where its not too fast for you.
There are differences between various MMR levels, but they are almost all about speed and accuracy of execution. When you are fastest you have options not available to slower players. Different strategies work. Wards do almost nothing for players who can't see the map anyway. TP scrolls are mostly useless when used at the wrong time (usually 3 seconds late). Blink daggers just make you look stupid when you blink and RP creeps 1 second after the hero moved. That is why the lowest MMR players love shadow blades... it gives them more time to think about the initiation.
I have played in games with players as high as 7.6k MMR and as low as 300 MMR. Do the best players know more? Yes, a lot more. But really the reason they are the best is speed and accuracy.
Relentless, before you start such a massive debate, can you please define clearly what you mean by "mechanical skill". because from reading your post it seems you are referring to a lot of different skill sets - some of which you could argue are not really "mechanical" in nature. you seem to talk about execution; perhaps you are thinking about the speed at which a better player executes, or the speed at which his visual processing is far superior that he is able to execute at a far greater speed with better perfection.
but i think you are missing out a very big part of the equation by saying that a quick execution is synonymous with mechanical skill. for me when i observe good players execute their plays, i do not see it as due to mechanical skill. I would argue that if i knew exactly what to do in a similar situation (with 6k coach telling me what to do) i could with a bit of practice, execute just as perfectly.
However, i would need a 6k coach telling me what to do. He would need to recognise opportunities with his superior game knowledge and tell me that hey, I could actually get this kill and snowball. If i had a 6k whispering in my ear, i think my winrate would significantly go up, even if my mechanical skill stayed the same. the problem is not that i'm slow in recognising opportunities and executing plays, it would be that i don't recognise opportunities at all (due to a lack of game experience, game knowledge - qualities i would argue that YOU overlook as being important for winning).
so what i mean is that im probably more limited by my game knowledge, than by my mechanical skill. I would argue that most ppl who don't improve are in fact limited by their game knowledge. because i feel dota is not as mechanically-oriented as say, SC2. you don't need to be mechanically gifted to play this game at a high level. but you do need to know a lot about strategy.
you talk about strategies - split pushing, smoke ganks, TPing, as though they are common knowledge. in low mmr games, all heroes are always showing in lane. if you were a better player, games would be so easy because you know where everyone is at all times. no one hides behind carries. is that a failure of game sense/strategy, or mechanical skill???
you honestly think that just because 1k mmr know what true sight is that they know how to incorporate it into their strategy? in 1kmmr, they probably start buying detection too late in a game, or buy it and use their wards haphazardly - what have all these have to do with mechanical skill? And yet, all these things affect the game and a team's ability to deal with invis heroes. it has nothing to do with mechanical execution, when a lot of DOTA is about preempting ganks (say a moonlight shadow gank, so you preemptively put down a sentry ward that saves your team and turns the fight. what has that got to do with mechanical skill?
why does a team with a nightstalker with aghs ganking during nighttime, win against a team with similar mechanical skill? they keep fighting them during night time and simply have not learned how vision strategically puts them at a disadvantage. I would argue they are limited by their ability to understand concepts in dota that keeps them at that mmr range.
you talk about failures to properly gank as a mechanical failure. but i would argue that in 1kmmr, failure to gank is not largely mechanical. i've seen 1kmmr games and their failure is usually always strategic. for example, a player's team just got wiped - 4 dead, and this player still casually walks in to try and get a kill on a low hp support - and just dies. you telling me that that's a failure to mechanically execute? or just poor ass game sense?
you assume that every1 has the same knowledge they need to win the game, and its all about execution. but that is so so wrong. i think you need to clearly define what u mean by mechanical skill, because you seem to think strategy and game sense is determined by mechanical skill in some way. but i think u need to not mix up the 2 concepts.
^ this.
Holy shit u guys calm down
Just play ur shit how un-lazy are u to write all these txts 😕
I'm saying that the reason a typical 1k player exhibits what you might interpret as "poor game sense" is really because the game is too fast for them.
As you know, if the 6k player explains to them what to do they could play at a much higher level... but only while being coached.
It is important to realize that there are those who are merely inexperienced but are actually able to process the information and move their fingers... those people happen be low MMR but will rise. However, most people will not. Most people will stay low MMR despite being told the same things over and over and over.
Understand most of them are not "stupid" in the sense that they could not function in daily life. Nor are they "stupid" in the sense that they could not understand, watching a replay in slow motion, what they did wrong and could have done better. But in the moment, at game speed, they cannot process and react to it.
While you, if you are a Dotabuff sort of person, probably can improve a lot... many people you play with and against can't. They are casual players because getting good is not important to them. But what people often forget is how people focus on, really spend time on, those things at which they are talented and succeed easily.
This will limit different people at different levels. If you have not spent a thousand games tryharding to max out your MMR you are unlikely to run into your personal limitations. But if you do, you will realize after a while that you reach a point beyond which you can't pass because the game speed at that MMR is just too fast for you. You will see that you make a lot more misclicks because you had to do something in 0.3 seconds and you normally take 0.4 seconds to do it. Trying to speed up to match the skill of that MMR, you misclick a higher % of the time because you just can't do it that fast.
At 1k MMR players usually appear to have terrible map awareness. This is largely because they cannot process the mini-map in a glance. They cannot notice a hero next to them in less than 1 second. It's like they are very drunk (compared to excellent players).
It is much easier to see and understand this if you watch better players than yourself than if you watch worse players. When you see worse players screwing up you can imagine they were not thinking... its hard to imagine thinking slower. But when you watch players way, way better than you doing things so fast you maybe can't even see them at regular speed...then you begin to realize they are seeing, processing, and acting faster.
When I watch a 7k player play dota from their perspective I usually cannot see their item checks. If I slow it down to 1/4 speed on the replay, then I can see their item checks. How do they click on the enemy hero, understand the items they have, and click back before I can see it happen? When I see a 1k MMR player do an item check (and they do use item checks) they often missclick a few times trying to select the hero, then they have to watch for 2 to 3 seconds to comprehend the items, then they typically have lost track of where their hero is and struggle for another couple seconds trying to find it.
The 1k MMR player, while some are truly just nubs, most can't have map awareness because they cannot see the mini-map while doing anything else. If they are moving their hero - they don't see the map - they may not see even the lane next to them. It's not possible for them to see both. Watch a 1k MMR player, they will often stand still for multiple seconds deciding what to do.... not waiting for something. Watch them shop and see how very long they take to click on items in the shop.
If a coach instructed a talented, but merely inexperienced player they rapidly improve. If a coach instructs an ordinary player, they will only do well while the coach is telling them what to do constantly. This is not merely true in dota, but in everything. Most people will never "get it". They can only be hand-held through processes they don't understand, would never imagine themselves, can't adjust or adapt, and will quickly forget what they learned.
For some people that might be in math, or writing, or music, or basketball, or fishing or whatever. But most people really can't learn a lot of things. The things they are good at doing, they pick up immediately and probably think are "easy" and wonder how others could possibly not learn them.... meanwhile in their weak areas they are bored because they fail.
For YOU the reader. If YOU feel like you have room to grow you probably do. But remember that eventually you will hit a ceiling. You will know you are close when the game starts to feel to fast. There is never a point where you are not gaining MMR because of "your team sucks". If you were better, you would win anyway. There is no trench. If you think that what needs to be done to win is impossible, you may be partially right... but only impossible for you, not impossible in general.
If you use a coach, spam your best hero, buy an account, smurf to the highest possible MMR etc... you will put yourself in a situation where the game is too fast for you and you will consistently win less than 50% of games until you have dropped back to a level where its not too fast for you.
There are differences between various MMR levels, but they are almost all about speed and accuracy of execution. When you are fastest you have options not available to slower players. Different strategies work. Wards do almost nothing for players who can't see the map anyway. TP scrolls are mostly useless when used at the wrong time (usually 3 seconds late). Blink daggers just make you look stupid when you blink and RP creeps 1 second after the hero moved. That is why the lowest MMR players love shadow blades... it gives them more time to think about the initiation.
I have played in games with players as high as 7.6k MMR and as low as 300 MMR. Do the best players know more? Yes, a lot more. But really the reason they are the best is speed and accuracy.
Wrote all this
FeelsBadMan
Well rentless i think u should be an author on dotabuff if you arent :/
U just wrote a whole article as a comment
Relentless spend more time debating the comment section than actual playing Dota 2