this build is trash in pubs and i don't even understand how people can complain about it
Spectre has the greatest dotabuff "Advantage" against alchemist. Doom has the next largest dotabuff "Advantage". https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/alchemist/matchups
Alchemist faces the lowest winrates 38% against Omniknight, and 39% against ursa.
If you want to limit mid alchemist farm, you need to kill him mid early and often, you need to control runes so he does not get bountry runes, and you need to block or steal his stacks.
In general killing alchemist over and over all game is a very effetive counter because his farm rate is so high - Alchemist faces a huge decrease in farm for time spent dead. At low skill levels where coordinated ganks are unlikely I think legion commader is probably the best at doing this. Kill alchemist and take his gold, gain extra damage - repeat, profit. The radiance, BoT, manta, octarine build is very easy to kill in duels. Alchemist is often farming alone and can even be ambushed right as he ports to a lane to farm it. His high attack speed, low hp, and low armor make Alchemist an ideal duel target.
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dotabuff stats shows alch as one of the hardest spec counters.
relentless cant even get his stats right?
good lord you arent even fit to be called nahaz
I don't really understand what the dotabuff "advantage" means. Spectre beats alchemist 55% of games. This is 5% less than the rate at which Spectre beats other heroes. On the other hand Alchemist loses 5% more games to Spectre than to other heroes.
I don't see how alchemist can be considered a "counter" to spectre by merely not failing as hard against Spectre as the average hero fails.
http://i.imgur.com/oN8k3qK.png
means the spec matchup for alchemist is his Most favoured matchup. thats just what the statistic mean, im not going to further try to explain.
http://i.imgur.com/XMBfPLF.png
alchemist counters spec because when you run spec you probably need 2 dedicated supports to secure your early game when you really want to have the same two supports roam mid on the alchemist or contest his jungle stacks
mid late game hes so bulky and has so much regen and wont even get affected by the slow damage over time from haunt. spec provides no real burst until she gets radiance manta + 1 more damage item up. so what usually ends up happening is both trade farm and you get a 25 min rad and fight against a 3 slotted alchemist and lose.
im going to quote swiftending where he talks about a similar matchup (IMO)
"its the same reason why alchemist rapes AM, actually a very similar matchup -> you're a hero that mostly farms and contributes little to pushes while playing against a hero who farms way faster while also having no way to pick him off on the map"
listen guys, alchemist is straight up cancer, you kill him he comes back in 2 minutes because of is passive, and nobody in pubs wants to dedicate their entire gameplay in being an asshole and kill the alchemist like a maniac, which is pretty hard already because of his crazy regen and radiance miss chance, apart from his teammates probably stacking and blowing his sack all game long. Apart from the difficulty to kill him, the bastard pushes lanes with ease. Translation: B.R.O.K.E.N
I agree that alchemist farms faster than spectre and antimage... but the fact is he still loses to Spectre 55%/45% a huge margin. And Alchemist still beats anti-mage 54%/46% almost as badly as he loses to Spectre.
It's one thing to say Alch outfarms Spectre, but while he actually does counter Anti-mage... he fails badly against Spectre. This is because Spectre has a huge teamfight prescence while Anti-mage really IS filling the same role as Alchemist (farm fast and split push).
Spectre wins games differently and Alchemist can only beat him by winning extremely early... which Alchemist usually cannot do, hence his bad stats vs Spectre.
It is basically incorrect to say that Spectre requires 2 major items to come online. Spectre does a ton of teamfight damage with just desolate and a diffusal blade. If you try to play Spectre as a split push, farming hero like anti-mage your winrate will be significantly lower.
Sorry man not trying to be rude but alch is a counter to spec , only reason spec has high win rate vs him is because his win rate is already high and of course there's 4 other players on each persons team . I am not sure why u have a hard time understanding dotabuff statistics , basically since specs win rate vs alch is lower than his base win rate it shows alch is good vs him .
I see that Spectre's winrate does decrease from 60% to 55% but Alchemist also drops for 50% to 45%.
If you win 45% of your games you are not gaining MMR. Go ahead and pick Alchemist to "counter" Spectre and enjoy your losses.
If you really want to counter Spectre you should get Omni-knight, Undying, and Necrophos. Those heroes really do win against Spectre by winning the game before he gets big.
I don't understand the reasons for calling the octarine build trash in pubs
I think it is really the best build for pubs because you can one man push all game long
you don't have to keep with your team and wait for a big fight
you can just push raks top, and when they react tp bot and push their t2 or some shit
sure you don't have much fighting potential, but that's exactly what other gamers are gonna pick in pubs
no one else is gonna pick beastmaster or lycan or LD, this way you can win the game all by yourself
well you guys are saying that spectre might or might not be the counter to him, but that further proves my point, there is not a pool of heroes that can counter him effectively. Think about it: for pa you can get some supports with high magical damage or tank hard carrys, you could also heroes with lockdown like axe or legion, or a troll if you want to take her right on. for a pl you have sooooooo many solution, as long as you have high damage aoe or cleave, he becomes as half as threatening if not more. For an antimage, you could pick support heroes with stuns and lockdown, maybe a slander or bh to track him, yet we all know that killing an am is very difficult, however not impossible. in the case of alch, countering is useless, you need to dedicate heroes to counter alch's play style, banking him doesn't work, you have to remember that his team can pick heroes that can counter YOUR counter (ex. io, omni, necro, dazzle or any hero that can straight up tp and heal him back to full health from 1 hp in 2 seconds.
son, i was around when lycan destroyed your entire base in one push
i said that this build is trash because this is not a fighting build and I see many alchs go fight with these items and feed
this is a good build if you play it around a strat: farming aghs for the team. With manta rad octarine you farm and splitpush extremely fast and can give aghs to all temmates in no time
"hey btw pick omni necro abbadon ursa its the counter to every hero guys!"
AA
Anyway, it's pretty hard to fight against the naga alch build in pubs with little coordination. At 20 minutes an undisturbed alchemist will be too tanky for you to take down, and in fact be able to fight with items not meant for fighting, by having sheer durability in a fight.
Heros that win the game early before a farming hero has time to farm effectively counter farming heroes. That is why many of the top winrates are occupied by early game heroes.
I know this works because I love to play powerful early game heroes. This year I have played 9 ranked games that were less than 20 minutes. I won 100%. I played 105 ranked games that were less than 30 min. I won 71.4%.
Winning before people have a chance to farm is an effective strategy. I almost always win the early game. I usually take FB myself and set it up if I don't get the kill.
If you want to pick heroes that can handle alch by themselves you need to push the mid tower really fucking fast so you can go farm his jungle and deny him that farm or better yet kill him in the jungle. So that means windranger and shadowfiend. Both should get free farm mid and be able to wreck that tower then go gank alch.
Other good pushers exist like dragon knight, but being melee he'll have trouble farming in the acid and won't gank alch as well until blink or shadowblade. Sniper it's super easy to get free farm in lane but it's hard to push with shrapnel now that the recharge takes so long, and sniper exposes himself to push the tower. You could go with a pugna or shadow shaman and get that tower down super fast, but they might not be able to solo kill alch at 6.
for the past 3 months i've had 21 matches against an Alchemist and I beat him 71.43% of the time
As a Spectre spammer myself, if I'm farmed and at least have my core items.
I'm not scared of an Alchemist.
A farmed Spectre can do so much more than a farmed Alchemist.
And the one item that no one has mentioned is DIFFUSAL BLADE.
I just laugh at a farmed Alche and eat him like a creep as soon as I have Radiance - Heart and the GOLDEN DIFFUSAL BLADE
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there's nothing to say, f**k you volvo, you tried to make a greedy and stupid hero good, well now he comes back to rip my dick off and send it right into outer space.