you gotta multiplicate it, it's then something like 38%, can't remember how you're supposed to do it though. crit damage stays the same
oh so stacks diminishingly? alright
is it really worth it just for the +81 damage really....so many times ive seen an ember go 2 dae better items imo....get one get bf make skadi..then manta maybe or mkb
ive not seen butterfly like at all on ember....whats up....pretty good agi item
Daedalus:
81 + 81*35% = 112 avg dmg from daedalus alone, where 35% is simplified (240-100) * 25%
2 Daedali:
Let's first get the chance:
1-(1-x)*(1-y) = 1-(1-0.25)*(1-0.25) = 1-(0.75*0.75) = 43.75%, which in (240-100) * 43.75% sense would be 61.25%
Which means the damage you get from two daedali is:
162 + 162 * 61.25% = 260
What this means is that, even though there are diminishing returns in terms of % percentage (you never get 100% even with 6 daedali), you still get more damage from each daedalus alone, that (in most cases) makes up for the difference, unless you really have some crazy damage amount where percentage loss is greater than the raw +81 gain (might want to calculate this for sven's damage when he ults, it is likely that two daedali have diminishing returns also in terms of total damage, and not just in crit stack damage).
Regarding that, this is not accounting for your base damage, which should be at least like 150 if you're actually buying daedali:
Daedalus: (150+81) * 135% = 311.85
2 Daedali: (150+162) * 161.25% = 503.1
And let's have sven with 150 base damage ult, so that'd be
Sven without ult: 150, look above to see values for his average damage with crit but without ult (311 and 503)
Sven with lvl 3 ult: 450
Daedalus: (450+81) * 135% = 716
2 Daedali: (450+162) * 161.25% = 986.85
Hope this answers your question. I used sven as example because he has an ability to gain immense raw damage other than Daedalus, which can be used to test Daedalus stacking effectiveness at larger values, and as you can see, the more damage you have, the more the + 81 becomes less relevant, and the chance becomes lower:
1 Daedalus: 25%
2 Daedali: 43.75%
3 Daedali: 57.81%
4 Daedali: 68.35%
5 Daedali: 76.26%
6 Daedali: 82.20%
"oh so stacks diminishingly? alright
is it really worth it just for the +81 damage really...."
Well, look up :D Depends on your base damage. Sometimes the +81 will have more effect than the 35/61% increase in overall DPS.
"so many times ive seen an ember go 2 dae better items imo...."
Two battlefuries and two daedali still give you the best overall DPS (disregarding rapiers) if you use 4 slots for damage and other two for something like BoT and manta.
"get one get bf make skadi..then manta maybe or mkb"
And have no damage? The only reason you get Skadi on ember is if you're concerned you won't be able to survive if somebody jumps you, in which case you should probably not pick ember, you are not built to tank damage. Skadi also has a cool AoE slow which is great and all, but ideally, you want raw damage items. You get manta to dodge shit if you have reflexes, and to remove silences that pretty much kill you. MKB is good because Sleigh of Fist does not ignore evasion, but it is still questionable because you want to get two battlefuries to deal tons of cleave damage, which ignores evasion. So this really depends on a lot of factors, MKB is something you don't want to build on ember, unless literally everyone has evasion, like manta/skadi are not items you ideally WANT to build for ember but sometimes you have to.
"ive not seen butterfly like at all on ember....whats up....pretty good agi item"
Yes, except for:
Ember should not be tanking damage, making 35% evasion kind of obsolete
Ember should not need attack speed, as he's supposed to kill people with Sleigh of Fist and stacked bfuries/daedali/rapiers/deso
Ember marginally benefits from +60 damage offered by that 6k item, compared to what DPS output he could have if he had an extra battlefury or daedalus. Simply put, if you Sleigh of Fist 3 heroes with a single battlefury, you've already done more damage than if you had a butterfly.
Butterfly is built either on manfight heroes, or on heroes that really benefit from tons of agility like drow and riki, and illusion agi heroes like naga, etc. You don't build butterfly on heroes like Kunkka and Ember who do majority of their damage by crits and burst, and not by walking into a fight.
Ember is different than most heroes cus of fist cleave thing. Most heroes will benefit more from some attack speed than a second Daedalus. Like on a sniper or medusa a butterfly is more dmg after first Daedalus
@Hranilac I just read your whole post in detail, and your assumption with sven is wrong, he only gets 3x his base dmg from strength. +dmg items do not get that increase. Your equations are still right but to get 150 base+strength dmg on sven he has to build strength items like heart, sange based items or have armlet active. That's why heart is so good on sven though vs other melees cus with his ult up it's a 120 dmg item vs normal str carries it's only 40.
I actually plugged into hero calculator and even for a hero like sniper who has a proc a second daedulus is more dmg than butterfly but barely. Sniper at 25 with s&y, treads and two daedulus is 871 dps before armor vs 849 with butterfly and one daedulus before armor. However shooting faster for his proc plus the dodge makes butterfly still better imo.
Drow same deal, about 10% more dmg with a second daedulus vs butterfly. However you can't crit buildings so butterfly is more dmg for both there.
Anyway I'd probably never build two daedulus on any hero besides ember just cus you are too much of a glass cannon but it is some of the best dmg if you do it.
true but doesn't kunkka also benefit from a battlefury? Though yes 6 slotted kunkka can have double daedulus, probably boots, bkb, silver edge, two daedulus (daeduli?) and a battlefury.
No reason to get buterfly on ember, you dont want to manfight, you want to sleight of fist and remnant away. Going damage is infinitly better. Except you sometimes need a manta or bkb to survive silences.
6 slotted kunkka w/o blink dagger and at least 1 rapier is a nonsense
Dire Wolf, I usually build Heart and BKB on Sven so I included it in the equation, it's not even 150 base damage at that point it's more like 167-8 as I remember, but 150 and 450 are nice big round numbers, and the equations reflects what's base damage and what's raw damage, hence why the numbers are 150 and 450 (3x base damage) and not 150 and 700+ something for one Daedalus.
@Arin: "Daedaluses" just sounds so wrong, and Daedali sounds awesome :D
The plural is indeed daedali.
Also on Ember you dont need 2x battlefury unless you are against meepo,CK,PL, naga etc.
I would only get it if i have something that can keep enemy team togheter like Magnus( tho at that point 2x bfury becomes a waste because he can give u empower). I find 2nd battlefury to be reliant on enemy positioning.
And anyway an ember late game will have battlefury,at least one daedalus, most cases an mkb, probably a defensive item, boots ofc and blink is usually really nice lategame. + At some point u have to consider rapier.
Also if u don't go rapier on kunkka lategame then its something wrong, imo the x-mark yourself>blink>hit splash>X mark back is so strong and its one of the best highround defense. Kunkka i think is played lategame just like Ember, you dont jump blindly in fight, attack only with splash.
Also Boat is so good lategame just for that CoCo Rum buff, basically an oracle ult on anyone or centaur aghs.
Please sign in to post comments.
so im guessing there's the obvious damage stack? +162 damage right
how does the crit stack?
does the proc chance also stack becoming 50% and what about the crit damage which is 240% for 1 dae