I would go poor mans and tangoes as my starting items. I would then get your supports to roam mid once SF is level 3 or 4. Once you kill him, the lane is won from that point forward.
At 6 you should triple remnant to kill him, but till then he just rapes you.
pms and go aggro on that bitch for whatever levels u can, also with the help of a single supp, or if you have boots first, you can murder sf with q and e, provided you dodge his q raze
yeah thats what i was thinking, might even have to bottle crow to survive like i played it right and got the ganks rolling with my team mates.
however in a game where you get shitty zapports i woulda been skrewed.
i just stayed alive got a gank on him and got travels to help makeup for the lost farm time.
i just got queued with him the game after and the shit talks were real when i called mid, to the point where they wouldn't let me mid.
'dude you lost xin vs sf, blah blah, you got shat on mid'
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1577362919 (i wrecked face that game anyway)
and im pretty sure unless the guy makes a mistake or you get a lucky rune, there really isn't a way to win that lane
If you catch him in a bad position at/after level 6, go for the kill attempt (have a point on lvl 2)
Before that, lane and farm safely, don't engage him except with a good rune or a gank from your team.
its kind of hard to get hit by all 3 razes if you initiate. you might be able to dodge the close range one too, by moving to his back, something like trying to dodge a hook, know wut im sayin'
anyway, you can play safe until 6, then you got the bastard.
what? ember rapes sf mid, are you all drunk?
how can sf easily break flame guard?
he can remove your lvl 1 flame guard, and thats it. you will never tank 2 razes with flame guard on. if you know what youre doing.
you cant win against sf!!
i usually win the lane level 1 and kill him level 2
ez game thereafter
xan they are noobs, dont listen to them. But sf does rape xin! Through harras spam, later combined with razes to finish him off
aight. im off to sleep, if anyone wants to play sf vs ember tomorrow hit me up and we can play 1v1.
its not like im running away, i still cant download the shit correctly so im unable to play.
However i will play you when i fix this issue. You can see from my last game played that im not shitting you.
im meh sf and even worse ember, but theorically sf shouldn't double raze you after flame guard unless you do smthng wrong. you just use this spell when u r willing to try to kill ur opponent, and sf can only hit you with one (smallest range) coil since then, which won't break the flame guard; and after that you just kill the sf cz u should have enough damage, particularly if you managed to harras him a bit in advance.
okay so if you're not using flame guard when you go into last hit and only when you want to go for a kill..
You'll eat a minimum of 200 damage from a raze. ea last hit.
If you do flameguard to get that last hit or 2. and want to get in range to harass. he'll double raze you, and suddenly your a melee creep in the middle of the lane.
theres really no winning untill 6.
Ember is stronger untill lvl 3, which gets you your bottle. but after lvl 3. goodluck with that shit.
but hey, if xan says it can be done without player error on the sf side i'd like to see how.
triplesteal the problem is you will not be full hp to go agro, and he will be controlling lane equilibrium
even approching sf to go aggressive will make you eat 1.5 right clicks or a medium raze unless he has no hands, after 6 you can try to burst him but ur super fucking vulnerable
if he has his belt/treads or a stick or something he could get away or turn on you especially with tps
a lot of the time you win the lane by killing him with FG but it feels like its always a mistake on his part, never just naturally dominating the lane
you cant even push the wave out for runes or he pops ur fg for free + gets ez lane push
his shit ms and hp make him weak to ur spells but he wins a passive farm war really fucking hard
@jdf8
he cant control lane equilibrium completely - you can block the waves to force him to cross the river and come to ur neighbourhood for lasthits - and this point you can try to kill him, or just give you several waves of creeps without contesting your farm
i suppose sf doesnt have treads on lvls 2-4
i think ember compliments the meta quite well actually, as he fights early and can hold his own late.
He's just abit awkward to lane at the moment, as i think his best position is safelane or mid depending on the matchup
But yeah thats esactally what happened in this game kitrak, however once my supports got moving round we managed to kill him and my snowball started.
its just really an aids lane though.
-> recent game -> http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1577362919
You pretty much lose this lane unless you have a competent team that helps you gank what most people don't understand about ember is he is very team dependent.
-Don't get your flame guard
-Have a team that ganks he is strong at controlling the game but lacks the laning ability
-Don't be aggressive just agro the creeps and searing if you have to\
-If the sf is retarded you can always get huge lane dominance at level 1 if you get flame guard otherwise skip it
-Either start with 2 branches/tango pool or a stout but the branches is a lot safer since it guarantees your bottle before he totally dominates you
^ Ember is shit safe lane for the following reasons
1. he is extremely level dependent
2. he is mediocre with farm
3. his laning is really bad
4. his biggest strength is mobility which allows you to gank/rune control
5. he is melee which is really bad against some offlaner
1. being safe lane doesnt mean sharing exp with 2 supps, are you nuts
qop's also level dependent but she's a very good safelaner atm
2. not sure if this is a troll
3. yeah it's not amazing but in a safe lane scenario it's way easier
4. kinda, but you can still rotate as a safe laner and give your lane to a greedy sup
5. what
@sano
1. Yes your supports don't have take XP but that also means you are soloing against the offlaner which because of a combination of poor laning/being melee you will not be very happy. I don't think people understand why QOP is such a good carry she is strong because 1 she is really good early/mid game and 2 because she completely crushes the offlaner.
2. He is a hero that almost depends on snowballing even his skill set supports this. If you are farming you are not making any impact on the game like a P1 he is inferior to other carries late game esp since he is so easily counterable.
4. The position isn't flexible for him he can gank mid or gank with a tp but the opportunity cost is high since you are freeing up space for the offlaner (assuming you aren't doing that already) and you will be doing it without runes/ possibly levels as well. Keep in mind if you keep a remnant then TP you will have low mana and most likely won't be able to initiate.
5. Pretty much a combination of all of the above makes this really bad.
He is a hero that kills to become really effective and he is really good at that. He has really high mobility which shouldn't be limited in the safe lane.
IDK who should win the lane, but either one can just go stack every minute if they cant get farm, then clear it later so it shouldn't be a horrible lane for either one of them.
@pedro
1. consider a spectre trilane, he offers his shitty dagger and sub par right clicks, compare that to an ember who'm gets any level advantage can solo kill you. let alone kill you with 2 supports in his lane, he offers alot more than many other safelaners in the actual lane.
Also slight of fist kills zombies, just throwing that out there.
2. he doesn't have to snowball, as he can flash farm, out farm and out carry people asuming the player is good. Ember has a way to be almost anywhere on the map at a time, and with 2x bfury or bfury crit. he'll clear a creep wave instantly. he also has an escape mechanism that can be countered yes, but its better than nothing... Ie. Sven/spectre.
3. Ember is one of the more if not most flexible safelaners, in the same boat as qop and storm. They do well in fights early, they farm at a reasonable rate and come online much sooner than an enemy carry will.
What kind of safelaners do you play dude, are you beyond braindead? do you just sit in lane for the entire duration of the game?
almost every safelaner i seem to play once i have a farm advantage i'll be farming heros not creeps.
'mobility is limited in safelane'. once you have your 6, supports don't even needa come close to your lane if they dont want too.
think about it this way, An am and an ember both have free farm and get bfury sub 15mins.
The am can't fight till 20-25mins till he gets annother item. The ember however, would start chewing through your team with his shiny new bfury.
and if the enemy dodges fights the ember gains map control, which is super scary for your little cm in the jungle.
not to mention he can still farm at a decent rate once he has it.
@12
you leave the lane to stack vs an sf, he gets your tower and would clear your stack before you even got close to strong enough to kill it
That being said i crushed an sf mid (he made mistakes) and got 15min bfury and still lost because there was no where to farm and i couldn't maintain my lead.
Cant Xin just bait raizes and dodge them with sleight fist? (since animation is quite long) and as Sam said at 6 you kil SF with tripple remenant (if you have not fallen too far behind because of lh)
the best way to kill sf is max the stun, it was put the most stress on me!
if he comes with flame guard he has to walk down to me, i will harras him and back while he gets close, ignoring him and razing between hits, at least i can raze him securely once, as i harrased more and backed some, his creeps wont hit me while mine should be hitting him, he will realize he's fucked, even with flameguard still on. finish him while he escapes, cant dodge shit.
if he goes stun, i may be bad positioned, and get killed by a support in fog, in time before i can move out of danger, besides if he goes bottle he can spam that shit and i will lose hp constantly while he's safe far away. I still win by slowing down getting better farm and bulding myself more safely like getting bottle --> usually i get boots level 2 and kill him then.
Yada yada yada, ill be on in 2 hours if anyone wants to actually play.
And ember is fine safe lane, its a tempo carry, you dont have to rice 20 minutes.
@peek
1. Spectre needs gold he does not need levels what part of that do you not understand. Ember really need levels since his flame guard/skils scale REALLY WELL. You are going on a tangent different from the original discussion.
2. I didn't say he has to in fact any carry in the game would love to snowball. The thing is he is really good at snowballing and to cut it short you don't necessarily want to be behind with him he is really really similar to storm/TA. You don't want to play behind with them yes they can catch up with stacks. Its like LC you don't want to farm with her that much because you want to win duels that is the point of the hero. Please stop making comparisons that you don't understand you are comparing apples and oranges.
3. To cut it short yes he is flexible but you are limiting his flexibility when you put him safe lane. The thing that I'm trying to say again he doesn't need a specific item to snowball he needs the levels that is it. Slarks usually rotate when they have SB but when does an ember rotate then when he has drums? If you are getting battlefury you are most likely farming and even with it, it is completely different from an AM who flash farms for critical mass. You can fight with it but it doesn't make you the strongest hero in the game especially if your skills arent even maxed out.
sf called king of solo mid for a reason
why even bother to do something to him with filthy melee hero lol
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how does one win this lane after lvl 3, razes kill your shield then your just a shitty ember vs a range hero.
midgame and lategame ember kinda shits on him, but yeah in lane you're basically a creep
Im assuming poormans is probably the best option but is ember really ment to win that lane? or just survive and make up for it with ganks