Not new, just the first time I've participated in this forum. If by new you mean that this is an old mechanic that is widely known, I have not seen it in action, so I have no real measure of its efficacy, thus bringing me to ask outside opinions.
Timber still has the same solution as any classic counter to ck, the same way Sand King is picked, Earthshaker, any hero with an innate advantage for wave-clearing and illusion clearing.
I am putting the case that, Pugna would be a perfect counter in any context of situation. His ulty practically does infinite damage to illusions, whereas other heroes have flat rates that grow less effective as illusion based carries grow fatter. Pugna's illusion killing ability is static at .45 seconds per illusion.
As for your comment about timber, timber is effective in any situation that has a strength-based carry, as a 15% reduction in the base stat is a 15% loss to HP from that stat, meaning it is an ability that scales through the game against strength heroes. If you look at matchup statistics, he excels against exceptionally tanky strength heroes such as axe, bristle, brew, etc. The fact that ck is strength and susceptible to AOE early on when the CK illusions are not beefed make timber a good counter, indeed.
@Benao, you have triple matches I have ever played, on this smurf and my original, and have played shadow fiend for about half of the matches I've ever played. I would appreciate if you would refrain from being condescending and belittling, and instead pass insight and be more constructive. Telling someone to simple "go to school pls" is an attitude that not only solves nothing but also represents badly on you :/
LC can clear illusions as well every 18 seconds plus damaged everyone in the area
Noone seems to understand what Nahgg is trying to say.
Noone seems to understand anything on dotabuff if its something out of the norm. People either de-rail or flame it. The guy is explaining how Pug can shut down illusion carries at ANY point of the game. Your Timbersaw or Legion Commander is not going to do shit against a Naga with 3500 hp.
Or are all of you too stupid to understand that?
^dotabuff isn't completely dominated by 2000 games-in 15 year old retards you know... just saying...
@humdinger
the thing is that this is nothing new. this strategy has been brought up multiple times, on multiple forums, from playdota to dotabuff to reddit, on all topics about countering illusion heroes from naga to tb, and has been put into practice competitively as well, by NWP of Titan against DK.Burning's Naga in TI4.
for those who already know this, this thread contributes nothing, which probably explains the lack of enthusiastic response.
OD's orb deals 400 dmg on top of normal damage to illusions. His ult also works against illusions, but I don't know what the interaction is, I'm assuming it works like this:
since OD's ult either burns mana (if int difference between target and self is below threshold) or does dmg, it will instantly kill illusions that are supposed to be mana burned & deal dmg to those with int difference above threshold.
@humdinger
Then why the fuck is he asking whose counter to ck even though he already knows that pugna is.. Pugna will probably get 1 shot before he can use his ulti
pugna is not a counter to ck alone, the moment ck splits the illusions..hes gonna toss the stun the next second. You'll only last so long b4 getting clubbed to death
If you are talking about a farmed pugna, then u might as well consider MEDUSA. Her ultimate and split shot is a direct counter to any illusion based hero
And to be honest, ck is the least dangerous of the illusion based heroes
There needs to be advice for item/idea counters against real problems like last-pick-no counter medusa/slarks/pl
@Zenoth, I think you give others too much credit. I think Kael was a fine example of the targeted audience of my comment.
@Kael, thats like saying Disruptor isn't a counter to Ember Spirit because 99% of the time Ember solo kills him anyway...
lc overwhelming odds
es echo slam
meepo poof frenzy
medusa gaze
basically any aoe nukes will destroy his illus unless he has like 5 hearts and the illu has like 6k hp. ck illus are by far the weakest (400% damage taken) however, they hit the hardest (100% damage dealt) except when compared to ds's scepter wall (110%)
?
hes seeking validation for his opinion.
and the answer is no
http://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/chaos-knight/matchups
pugna is no where close
a hero isnt a good counter when you need to get aghs in order to start countering him.
^
no one gives a shit about stats consisting mostly of normal skill bracket, those are mostly valid only if you are from that bracket yourself
pugna is actually a great counter if played correctly, your argument of
"pugna is no where close a hero isnt a good counter when you need to get aghs in order to start countering him."
is likewise applicable to pugna vs naga and competitive players have proven you wrong.
but on a more serious note overwhelming odds is a guaranteed OHKO on all illusions from CK/TB so there's that
Thoughts? This is a stupid thread and nothing counters illusions better than aoe spells. You don't want to be wasting time clicking each illusion, if the illusions are distracting you enough to make you focus on them, then they are doing a good job as illusions. Like zenoth said probably best illusion counter is overwhelming odds. Mjollinir counters illusions nicely too.
Hope its clear for noob OP that he needs to go to school and learn to think before he posts here again
In theory, yes its a nice way to kill illusions albeit costly on the mp pool.
In the weeks/months running up to and during TI4, Pugna was a very common pick especially in the Chinese scene, LGD and VG comes to mind as notorious pugna pickers in their drafts, as a counter to Naga.
As far as i remember it didn't have that much success against illu based heroes. Prove me wrong, thanks.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/770632334
classic example of how to run core pugna to counter naga, push early, map control while having insurance to counter his illusions late
dk dragged out the game admirably and against another core hero they might have had it, but pugna literally shat on his illusions every time they showed their face.
oh yeah ^ that game. I remember the epic holds that Dk made at the end.. admirable hold with burning snaking his illus around the lane to prevent it getting zapped by pugna. If you look at that game closely again, even NWP and the rest of the team had trouble tracking down illus. They ended up just massing bkbs and barreling down an already raxed mid lane after multiple unsuccessful attempts
Honestly though, i believe that game would have ended much differently if ice^3 didnt make that many mistakes early, i remember his early feederinos on the off-lane. Point taken anyway.
OD - although in a 1v1 situation CK might murder you before you finish orbing his illusions so his ulti might be necessary. But Medusa is probably the best. Every one of her skills (except mana shield) is designed to kill illusions.
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Reading more on illusions, as I had to make sure what I was saying on the PL thread was not total bogus, I noticed something very interesting regarding illusions mechanics working specifically with Pugna.
"If the target is an illusion it's destroyed on the first damage tick.", referring to his ultimate Life Drain. Suppose someone rushes an Aghanim's for Pugna to reduce cool down to 0, could you then ideally destroy every single illusion chaos knight spawns? Ideally, it would be a .25 second damage tick, and a .2 second cast time, so roughly 2 illusions can be destroyed per second.
Realistically, this can be "abused" against any heroes who's illusions are "expensive" (Naga, TB, and Spectre come to mind very very quickly.) What I have read insists this possibility for simple illusions, and since Chaos Knight's illusions are purgable, It doesn't seem to insist otherwise.
I know there are other spells that have the same mechanic (Diffusal, Hex spells, Mana drain from Lion), yet none have a cooldown short enough to be effective against massive amounts of illusions.
Thoughts?
Edit: I did not search this topic before, but I found another link corroborating the theory. http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240949
Edit #2: Wall of text solved?