Thing with vacuum into wall is that you will hit everybody you vacuum. You vacuum you'll have time to putt wall up before they can get away from it.
With Wall into vacuum enemy knows where wall is already and can leap, pounce, aka escape before any vacuum or shit occurs.
yes but if you do a wall you have to use vacuum, whereas if you do a bad vacuum you can just save ulti.
so it's optional and I do both.
vaccuum has a short disable time (0.3s) when people are being pulled in the center, which almost makes up for the 0.4s cast animation for wall, as the enemy only has 0.1s to get out of the wall.
if you wall first though, the enemy has 0.4s to escape vaccuum's radius, coincidentally the time it takes for force staff to push you.
but if u do wall first, the disable from vacuum will make enemy heroes stay in wall more time
LOL, what do u know about my skill , + i asked about pro ds opinions, u have 43% winrate in that hero, i have 70, so plz keep ur silly comments and keep this is a clean discussion
vac first. being in the wall does nothing, as long as they walk through it once, the damage is dealt and the illusions are made.
@Monster
As if WR has a an influence on the opinion or how efficient one is with the hero, also you dont have the number to support it.
Wall first if enemies cannot get away to secure a good wall combo
Vacuum first if they get away however due to small movements already not as good of a wall
depend of ur posi. obviously, if ur just in range to vaccum u wont be in range to wall, so u'll waste ur wall cuz they'd alrdy be way too far
it doesnt matter how long they stay in the wall. they only need to touch the wall once for it to damage and create an illusion.
also vaccuum has a 28s cooldown, wall has a 100s cooldown (i think) so missing a vaccuum isnt as big a deal as missing wall
MONSTER, I can clearly see that you're in the "Normal" skill bracket, considering 3,8k is pretty low and thats' considered "Very High" that has to tell that you're a pretty bad player.
Also, winrate doesn't say anything, also I doubt any of the active players on dotabuff are "pro".
you dont need to be pro, just have a working knowledge of game mechanics and use your brain.
if you wall first, you can't vaccuum heroes who then pop BKB. if you vaccuum them first because you surprised them with a blink, even if they do BKB after, the wall (and therefore illusion) has already been created.
or if you wall first, OD and SD can cast imprisonment / disruption (0.3s cast time) quicker than you can cast vaccuum. if you vac first there's only a 0.1s window, but imprison / disruption have a longer cast time meaning banishing yourself before you get walled is impossible.
just a few more examples of vaccuum first being superior.
u say winrate doesnt say anything but MMR does, so tell me after u got ur first MMR how does ur MMR change ? i guess according to winrate, u MAY be better than me in some heroes or most of the heroes but obviously not in dark seer , and this topic is about dark seer :) thank you sir
Monster you don't know what you're talking about. Me and other people are in a higher bracket than you thus get matches vs higher skilled players than you do. You having 70% winrate on Dark Seer vs. shitplayers like yourself doesn't mean you'd manage to keep 70% winrate in a 4,8k game. I doubt you'd even be able to do anything in an average game cause you don't have the knowledge.
70% winrate wouldn't be impressive on any hero if you're in 2k bracket. rofl
im not here to see whos the better player between me and you, the only thing i know is that dark seer as a hero has 48% winrate ingeneral (for all skill levels) and you mister have 43% winrate on him , thus u suck at him no matter whats ur skill level, so please save me from ur silly comments and go find another topic to trash talk
or maybe I let u play on my acc and you can try to play offlane darkseer in 4800mmr instaed of 2500 mmr?
lel , im not 2500 mmr , and i think the 1 v 1 is better , i added u we play tomorrow i have to sleep now
Sure, let's do timbersaw though. Dark Seer is 99% of the cases played in offlane and going him mid to spam ion shells and hit each other is not fun.
I don't achieve anything by playing against a player I know is worse than myself, so I'd rather have fun playing a 1v1 than playing Dark Seer.
Go play on a friends acc or something with 4800+ rating, 5 games and I'd like to see how many you'd won. I bet you'd be on like 0% winrate unless your team carried you hard.
Putting down the wall before vacuum is mainly accurate only if you can surely predict where the fight will be taking place. As when you are defending-, or attacking towers.
Or if you arrive into the fight when it's already on, but mostly people expect a DS to go in firstly, or at least secondly as it's tanky enough and won't make much more than use these 2 spells once.
Personally, i mostly vacuum first and just put a big-ass wall on them if its a random teamfight.
In terms of flexibility, casting Vacuum before Wall makes more sense. Depending on your lineup and where the war is taking place, Wall isn't always best used smack in the middle (eg: Wall can be used to block enemies in or funnel them into another hero's AOE).
Wasn't this about 1v1 dark seer? You can't settle your dispute about who is better at dark seer if you play a completely different hero...
Check universe do it, he does it extremely quick and he always vacs into wall
Only scenarios in which you drop wall first is if you have a set up like naga song, et stun
Gaben, you cant tell who's better on Dark Seer when he plays in trashbracket 2k rating comparing his winrate and scores to mine at 4800.
That makes no sense, yet he thinks he must be fantasticly much better than me on Dark Seer cause his scores say so.
just wanna point out that this guy didnt accept my request so we can do any sort of challenge, he just spams that he has a 4k mmr
Lol what does winrate prove? I have 74% winrate on Dark Seer and I have no idea how to play that hero meanwhile I have 52% winrate on rubik which is by far my best hero but you cannot carry on a support.
I'm 2k :|
MONSTER, I know I win versus you 1v1 mid 100% anyway. There is no point for me to play versus a player I know is worse than myself.
Go play offlane dark seer versus 4800+ and I'd laugh @ your confidence about your 70%winrate 20games against 3k scrubs
^ you are the one who accepted the challenge then bitched out with the excuse you think your opponent is too noob for you ?
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this topic is about dark seer, one of my most successful heroes, when it comes to his vacuum wall combo, what should be done first ? is it situational ? i myself do wall then vacuum and find it great, but when watching some pro games i saw some players do vacuum then put wall , i need some pro darkseer opinions, thank you :)