General Discussionso, how to counter...

For Ember, Q-W Invoker and drain his entire mana. Request ganks before he gets 6. Against Viper you can't really do much. That's the entire point of the hero, winning his lane. So you will need help if you wanna win. And versus lycan, you need some anti-rats like clockwerk and storm. You may need some help to solo kill him though. But even stopping his push is a pretty big deal.

yea i'd thought about QW invoker vs ember...
one more thing, when would you pick TA? in what kind of strat?

thanks for your help

TA is terrible against both Viper and Ember because of their DPS but she is pretty good against Invoker, Storm and Magnus kind of heroes if you know what you are doing.

pick ta when you need a strong mid game carry in the mid lane, or as a counter to puck

Silencer vs viper. He cannot drop your curse without his ult so that means it will go full duration prior to 6. You'll take a little dmg from his corresive skin but he'll take way more from your curse and have no mana to ult or orb you. With glaives you should be able to last hit vs his nethertoxin too.

Also I am not sure if kunkka's cleave procs corrosive skin. If not he'd be a decent choice too.

I think razor might be ok as well, zone him out with a link.

Pudge is great vs terrible vipers. Even viper can't survive hooks and you just stand behind creeps since you don't need last hits so no harrassment.

everything is good vs terrible vipers. at even level viper should roflstomp pudge.
and I'd rather go for last word than curse on nort.

as far as counters go, not many. exort voker with spirits can win a lane.

batrider counters viper well at later stages of the game, as for the early stages u must only focus outlasthitting him, and avoid feeding him . as for ember spirit , dragon knight is the ultimate counter

The biggest issue with Viper is his laning stage rape. There are very few heroes who can withstand his harass, but only a handful of heroes can actually win or make something out of a 1v1 with Viper:
- Batrider
- Sniper
- Huskar
- Invoker
- Razor

Usually when I play against lycan's, disruptor seems to do good. A lycan can't do much about a glimpse (unless he pops bkb, but that in itself is a win) or his kinetic field.

Phoenix will counter them except for Lycan.

To counter Lycan, you'll need someone like Storm/Clock/Furion.

Use TA for Ember. Srsly.

viper should go about even against shadow fiend

if ta blocks properly, ta can go even against viper (not easy, but doable)

huskar, qop, and clinkz should be able to dominate ember mid, though those are unorthodox mid heroes to have (not qop but the other two heroes)

if all else fails pick od

i've won tons of matchups that are uneven in favor of the other guy because they usually get cocky and overextend, you need to learn how to exploit them being out of position for even 1 second in order to secure a kill or make them burn through regen. frankly when i pick ember mid i actually rejoice when the other guy picks something like viper/qop because it means i'll have a much easier time killing them after lane phase is over (whereas i can dominate storm in lane, but storm can solo kill ember easily with just orchid later on)

i don't have any problems with lycan for some reason, pick something that can jump on him or disable through bkb (naga siren comes to mind)

Dont give lycan if enemy on dire, give lycan if they're at radiant. And go treelane to shutdown him, rubick axe dazzle, ds axe dazzle, viper lich rubick also good.

Ember? Clinkz counter hard ember in mid, and in midgame once cliniz has orchid, he cant do anything.

About viper, not really game changing hero. So, i think kost of mid hero do fine with him.

People always underestimate viper's midgame, but with just treads + mek he does serious damage and slow and is tanky as hell. Once he gets aghs it's all ogre

Viper isn't game changing? Viper destroys the lane and crushes mid game. Even his late game is fine if you can squeeze out a butterfly and a heart/aghs, he gets super tanky and with lots of IAS from butterfly his nethertoxin hurts. The main issue is people quit farming with him past lane stage, he doesn't end many games over 500 gpm.

However one strat you can use vs a viper mid is concede the lane and gank. Despite having an uber ult for ganking, the ult has pretty limited range without aghs and viper's move speed is low and most players go treads on him so he is not a great ganker at all. On my viper games I prefer to farm mid over ganking, only ganking if there's a good rune. So you could go slark or bloodseeker or nightstalker or something like that and gank and win the side lanes instead.

Vs lycan you need strong disables since slows don't do crap. Most lycans farm bkb really late if at all so any stuns with kill them. Eartshaker is good, distruptor is good, batrider with blink is really good.

terror blade
venge

invoker

phoenix
DP

are not enough?

I'm pretty sure at all MMR laning against phoenix and DP is a fucking hell

I have a really bad time vs QoP in a recent match. She was kiting me out of lane, so I could barely last hit. But I knew that as soon as the laning phase was over i would rule that bitch. And that was what happened... she failed to kill me, so all she had was CS advantage. With Drums and Bfury I could literally 2 SoF hit her. Phoenix and TB are unavailable at CM, aren't they? So even though they are possible counters, i couldn't pick them lulz

I didn't find Viper so easily killable by Ember. Neither my opponents did when i picked viper. I made this shit so tanky with mek + aghs + halberd. I usually end games with 1 or 2 kills at most if the game does not extend too far. Viper gets outcarried lategame by most of the true carries out there, but this hero is useful in all stages. Early mid dominance, late game tankiness and dps with his 3rd skill, while tanking everything.

I must test Storm vs Lycan, thoguh. Last few matches my team managed to pick Lycan, so nothing to bother. (last CM match the other team did let us pick Ember and Lycan lol, seemed like they were going - atleast at first - for a -armor strat, but it sounded weird when they banned dazzle. Their lineup was pretty much weird, but still effective, but I couldnt see what was their point at it anyways: Slardar, QoP, Centaur, Shadow Demon and Sand King). It worked really well early cause they could lockdown with ease, and if i'm not wrong they went for an aggressive trilane. But as the game past 25min they barely could handle me (ember) 1v4, and we had NP and Lycan both splitpushing.

Anyway, going for what matters: what do you guys consider the most "safe" picks for mid? Despite the strat, i mean heroes that are great there.

Ember and Invoker are usually first ban so I usually go for Storm/Puck/OD/Viper/whatever else may the team require. Any other suggestions? I like QoP but dunno in this patch she looks weird for me. I like DK aswell but can't find a strat for him other than push ones.

Suggestions? Only heroes available in CM

Solid mids without knowing the competition? I think TA, storm, viper, razor. I mean viper's only super hard counter is silencer and you can lure one of your side laners into ganking him if necessary. TA, storm are both mobile, good carries, good gankers. Razor is a really nice anti carry. I do like a good OD and shadowfiend but it seems they have a lot more counters. If I am picking blind I'd go viper 100% of the time for me, but if you're skilled at storm I'd do him.

Shouldn't you know the counters to Viper/Ember in your experience as mid, or you can't play those heroes?

OD/Viper are the type of heroes which you can't really win 1v1 straight up, so you just try to break even/not lose your matchup. Viper falls off after mid game anyway unless your team allowed him to snowball out of control.

As for lycan/ratting, this is something your team should know how to deal with as a team in general. For lycan, pressure him in the laning phase and make sure your team makes the appropriate response to split pushing. Too hard to explain without knowing what level you're playing at.

TA and Ember counter each other if you ask me. Max meld and his terrible armor goes into the negative REALLY fast and if you play it right he is gonna tank the creeps + you everytime he runs at you. Obviously he wrecks your Refraction but it's usually decided by execution who wins the fight.
I have wrecked Embers mid with TA and I have seen good players lose to Ember with TA.
Try it out and see how it goes (shouldnt be too hard to find Ember pickers anyways..)

Go Pudge against Viper, and u would need 1 hr to land an attack on him, Viper is difficult to counter, Lycan needs early pressure against him, and heavy/long duration disables, which penetrate magic immunity too, like bane, naga, beast master can be nice too

I just meant against players with bad positioning. Pudge can easily kill before lvl 6 with a good hook and after 6 it's still a likely kill as viper will be super low after hook dismember with rot dmg. You'd be surprised how few people can dodge hooks even in 3k bracket. Those same players will still dominate a normal matchup cus you can't harass them due to corrosive skin and they can easily last hit with nethertoxin.

And I still disagree with everyone saying viper falls off late. Maybe people need to build butterfly on him more instead of manta and heart. That dodge and IAS greatly enhances his tankiness and nethertoxin.