Manta style allows you to push more which is great when combined with diffusal (more mana burn) or radiance, and also you can manta out of silence.
Also noone will tell you to go it as a first item but as a third or forth. If you have a splitpusher manta is amazing
And he also thinks that manta somehow has sinergy with diffusal blade on mirana
I didn't say they do no dmg, I said they don't do enough to justify the cost on heroes that don't have illusion buffing abilities. Like sniper, viper and razor. Explain why manta is an ideal item for any of them.
^Ranged manta style illusions only deal 28 percent damage, melee 33 percent.
Ranged take 400 percent damage, melee 350 percent.
They only last for 20 seconds.
Obviously you want it on TB, PL, Naga, CK and stuff, but on alot of agility heroes its not worth the cost because only certain heroes can take advantage of it. However, I don't think it needs a buff, its just a little overrated on non illusion heroes, but could still be bought.
Ok I see in wiki tooltip for diffusal: Only usable by Melee illusions. So I was wrong on Mirana MY BAD NEGROES. Cus I know people get that shit on spectre all the time and it works. Not my fault dota has inconsistent rules for everything like lifesteal stacking with skadi on ranged only, jesus christ icefrog.
yea lets just all stack wraith bands because it is the most cost efficient items.........
The ability produce illusions is well worth that 2.2k. You didn't mention how illusions make it difficult for enemy to use single target spells on you, they also block a lot of skill shots.
In the correct situations, it is well worth its cost, especially as a 2nd or 3rd core item when your hero already has damage. You shouldn't simply compare the stats like that because the illusions DO scale.
last time I check they say illusion don't provide feedback now is that right?
![[Lk].Zano](https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/b9/b98e01ce6ef4a5e926a44cdd1564d0e8e5fbfa36_full.jpg "[Lk].Zano")
You can't simply consider just the stats. Manta too good, it dispells silence, dusts, provides some dps buff with the illusions, single targeters will cry, illusions are awesome Mirana's arrow shields, it only requires one slot...it goes on and on.
For 500 more you get daedalus instead, 25% crit 2.4x vs. s&y wannabe with 2 hit illusions to tank. +26 damage some speed buff. Roll 1 crits and the manta user runs like the wind!
@princess zukini, I guess ranged illusions don't feedback, melee ones do. And yes that is kind of my point, daedulus for 500 more or butterfly for ~1000 more. Seem like better items on many heroes.
but ur forgettin that some people really need the AS and MS over dmg
also sniper's clones are deadly <3 dunno why u would skip manta on him
u dont mention that manta can be used to dispel certain spells (orchid dot f.e.), thats quite useful.
dont forget that manta lets you have illusions with your attack modifier, aura buffs/debuffs, and gem of true sight.
manta is often a better counter for single-target initiators like Bat, Doom and LC if your reflexes are good enough.
If they have already clicked you and their character is moving cus spell is out of range, will activating manta make them lose their target?
Nope. But if they blink in and already click you it's probably too late. You need to activate it once you hear the blink. Just like Sleight>Searing Chains, you need to activate at a near-instant speed faster than the average human reflex.
@Sirius Lee
Maybe my sniper is shit but i never get manta. In some cases Yasha is optional, but i highly doubt Manta would be a must need item.
"faster than human reflex"
i dont think its faster than human reflex, ive even had time to double tap my blink key after hearing blink before getting initiated on
Manta is one of the best dmg items on heavy stats heroes (morphling) or the one with nice passives (desolate, metamorphosis, mana break). In terms of defense it can dispell some abilities (silence) & make it harder to focus u if u have tanky illusions. For me this is one of the best items u can get on heroes like - PL, Naga, Spectre, TB, CK, Morphling, Antimage & it's still really good on others. Also Manta scales really well. Daedalus is overrated. I don't get this item a lot, because this game in most cases is not about dealing dmg, but surviving long enough. U can have 3 rapiers, 3 daedalus, but if focused u will die in 1sec. For me Daedalus is more situational than Manta. Manta is a good item nearly in every game.
well then if ur sniper is shit then why are u doubting?
its not a must need, and i dont recommend it as your first core item, i would stick with yasha for the most part, and whenever I feel like I need a bit more HP/armor/escape then ill complete a manta
IMO, Manta as an offensive item is good on illusion-based heroes, diffusal-friendly heroes, and heroes like Meepo with his Geostrike. It's also can be good on Tiny and Morph because their illusions will have much more % of their total DPS. And, I think, it could be interesting on Axe, but that's another story.
Manta is bullshit as offensive item on every ranged hero (except Morph), especially on Sniper (low base damage, headshot doesn't works) and Drow (illusion's don't inherit her ulti's AGI bonus).
As a defensive item it's decent. For example, Mirana doesn't greatly profits from illusions themselves, however she has a great escape skill, that allows her to be more aggressive and dive enemies deeper than most other heroes can afford. Manta is a good way to secure that skill. As a bonus, it's assembled from Yasha which is really good early-to-mid item for AGI heroes.
I do think that BKB is better than Manta in most cases, but if enemies have skills that can go through BKB, relies on solo-target damage or if you can't afford yourself to skip early game items (I mean Yasha), those are good reasons to choose Manta.
Have you ever had sniper's illusions or drow's illusions nailing you?
It's great on the heroes listed above, as well as heroes with high DPS, AS and attack animation.
Average human reflex - 0.3s. Reaction time needed for spells like SoF into Searing Chains - 0.2 s or less.
Defensive item. Manta>root, Manta>wounds, Manta>everything.
In addition, great pushing item. I don't get how you can compare drums and roa to manta.
Manta Style
1. AM
2. Luna
3. TB
4. Morphling
5. Naga Siren
6. PL
7. CK
if u purchase it with other heroes.. you're doom.. and nerd. lol
@Sirius Lee
Yes I had, those illusions do no damage. And when they do, Sniper and Drow usually can sell Manta for GG Branch and still stomp the game.
@Zenoth
Are you from the fucking Krypton? Because it's a first time I hear about one third of goddamn millisecond being an "average human reflex".
Your point is null if you're going to change how your hypothetical scenario works to suit your theory...
If by the time Manta is useful, and is as useless as GG branch, how would ROA or Drums be more useful?
You're comparing early-mid game based items to late game items and saying the late game is shitty because you say so.
Manta Style is like BKB. Alot of it's cost is for just it's active because it's active is that good.
Drum + Aquila in a way is comparable to Ogre Club + Mithril Hammer compared to a full BKB.
Occupies more slots but gives similar stats (in the case of BKB, exactly the same stats). The stats of the item can be replaced by something else, but not the active cannot be replaced by any other item. No amount of stats can stop you getting stunned unlike the Manta or BKB.
Because... this was the entire discussion of the thread?
Try playing a more intermediate mode?
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For the stats it provides manta style is quite expensive. Obviously Manta's power is in the illusions and disable escape, but let's consider the stats alone for now. For example, a drums + ring of aquila comparison:
Manta - 5050g
10 Strength
26 Agility
10 Intelligence
15 Attack speed
10% Movement speed
Drums + RoA - 2835 (2215 less)
12 Strength
18 Agility
12 Intelligence
12 Damage
3 Armor with RoA aura
5 attack speed
5% movement speed
For an agility hero Drums + RoA gives you more dmg, more stats except agility but who cares cus it has more armor, 5 less attack speed, 5 less movement but it has more when you use the drums.
You are basically paying 2200g for those illusions (and to take up 1 less item spot which is not insignificant). My thought here is if you need the disable removal just go bkb. The illusions, while nice, to me simply aren't worth that price unless I'm playing a hero who directly benefits illusions like anti mage or luna with her glaive bounce. If I'm playing mirana and go diffusal blade I'd consider manta in those cases too, even though her abilities don't directly buff the illusions my item build did.
But I see people buying manta all the time on heroes like razor, viper and sniper and I have to wonder why. Sure the movement speed on all these heroes is awesome, but for razor and sniper I think naked yasha or sange and yasha is better for the money. Viper his illusions can't cast his orb effect so what's the point? Seems like there are much better item choices. Unbuffed illusions don't offer enough right click dmg in my view and they die so fast to any aoe.
Am I missing anything here? Maybe it's a personal preference. I know a lot of players despise sange and yasha even though I think it's a sweet item depending on the hero. Perhaps my distaste for manta is similar.