General DiscussionImproving my Viper

Serious answers Mek. its awesome for viper gives him exactly what he wants which is some durability in the early game, and it helps the team. the aghs is great after the mek personally i like treads when im doing mek into aghs, but if i have to try and be more of a 1 role which in my opinion viper is not his best at i tend to shift to a phases>Manta>Whatever build just for the dps output

Dont be afraid to max Corrosive skin before poison attack either, though in my opinion nether toxin should always be maxed before both of those. lets you hit VERY Hard early on

also no shadow blade vipers a hero that thrives from taking damage with his passive it makes him so much tankier then you would think combined with the mek, i mean obviously you dont want to get instantly popped but shadow blade brings you nothing to the table but an escape

Orchid ive found is a situational item, I think your better off just going for aghs almost always first. I find that a linkens is usually fine as well but if its a ton of magic a BKB is needed but a linkens is a nice touch to survivability

I Find myself after mek treads aghs usually deciding between manta and linkens. Both are good manta is a more aggressive item choice and linkens more of a safe item i tend to get linkens more simply for the survivability it offers but manta lets your bring down towers right quick

Yeah I've done a lot of theory crafting involving mek, should I just rush it straight after boots upgrade? Obviously viper can farm relatively well so early mek will be great

I know it might sound weird, but i will literally often times just go straight mek (assuming your on the midlane.) you can usually finish it around level 6-7 if your doing well and you take the mek and grab a tp and get to a lane and have them push in aggressive so you can bring in the heal usually.

TL:DR I Usually pure rush the mek, though getting brown boots first is probably ok seeing as vipers a slow mofo.

I have to agree with him, although IMO treads into mek is 100x better than mek into treads. Treads gives you fantastic killing power and much needed early hp.

My typical build is treads mek aghs and then you have a ton of options.

Need disable? Viper is one of the best halberd carriers, a great sheep holder, and does pretty good with atos/orchid

Need to carry? Typical bfly/AC/satanic/dae/mkb/bkb/manta shit. Keep in mind viper likes attack speed more than damage, my go to item for carrying is usually bfly, maybe with yasha first.

I feel manta is a bit wasted since the illusions don't get his damage steroid, just the tanky one (nobody gets manta on AM for the spell shield illusions, they get it for 3x mana break)

IDk, I feel like boots into buckler gives you enough survivability that armor + a little stats is good, But anyway point is crits are fun with viper because the nethertoxin does add more damage to the crit which is always fun!

Ring of Aquila always. This gives you +18 damage, and some decent stats for 985G. You can have this after a minute easily. This is how you absolutely dominate mid. Nethertoxin is dependant on you being able to get people down below 60% health before it really starts to hurt and snow ball too. If you go straight Mek you will be sacrificing some damage and early on you don't really need it nor have the mana pool for it.

Phase after ROA, the phase is really handy for catching fleeing heroes for a death toxin hit. Also Viper is pretty damn slow and the +24 damage is great for wearing people down. ROA + PB = + 42 damage. Treads are an option too, but I always feel Viper is just so slow he needs the phase. Your choice.

From here on Viper is very situational, and by that I mean it completely depends on what your team is doing and how well you are farming/dominating. Mek is great on Viper, but it is not really money well spent if a support is already building it. That kind of cash puts you half way to Aghas or an outright Yasha, and could buy you a Perseverence for a build into Linkens. There are better items for armor and regen on Viper if he doesn't need the Mek active.

I think the biggest factor for items from here depends on how well your carry (1 role) is doing. IMO if your carry is really sucking balls you can continue down the tanky/CC build with aghas, but you have to ensure you babysit your carry a bit and get them back in the game. The reason being is that tanky Viper lacks DPS from the mid-late game onwards, but has a great ulti. Your carry has to be able to capitalise on this for your build to work, else you are going to go later game and your build will lose its effectiveness without a team to work with it. By then it will be too late for you to change into DPS Viper and you'll just get pissed off at watching your team die and eventually yourself as the other team work through your 3k+ hp pool.

If you think there is no way back for your carry, then you may have to go with some DPS and get ahead more. I'd say the same if your team has no pushers either. Tanky Viper is so slow to take towers down or anything for that fact. In this case you have to go more aggressive and take the 1 role from them through your ability to farm items much quicker. If you are really farming quickly I think Bracer/Drums into Yasha and Crystalys make a good start to stop you falling off in DPS in the late-mid game. Your Nethertoxin should still be fairly effective at this point.

TLDR;
Mek -> Agahs -> HoT is my favourite on Viper but if you don't think your team can do the job then you have to go with some DPS early on instead.

u should go mek agha then mby that sange item then hot depending on the gold ur getting... more than items its how u play him... he's like most of the current OP heroes right now, very gay! what i mean with this is that u gotta play fucking pussy to win, only fight when u know u can win and always retreat when u cant,,just trade farm and be annoying u dont rly need to finish the job

I go treads, wraith band, then mek. I never considered aquilla but that sounds strong too. I always put 1 point in Q then nethertoxin, then 1 in E then I max nethertoxin. Getting a wraith band plus nethertoxin you will easily get every last hit and many of the denies.

After that it's situational. I do not consider mek to be situational. Viper needs at least one tanky item and the choices are basically drums, mek, vanguard or sange. Mek gives the best stats for viper of those.

Then it depends on my team role. If I'm the main carry I'll go straight for butterfly. It greatly improves viper's dmg as well as giving survivability. If we have lots of other damage like a faceless void or spectre or some other super hard carry farming or we have a ton of magic dmg like a warlock, lina, lion or something crazy like that I'll go aghs for the tanky stats and utility. After either of those I usually go heart.

Throw a bkb in there if it's absolutely needed like against a wombo combo team, but generally you can skip bkb on viper. Throw mkb in there if they have crazy evasion heroes like PA or are building butterflies. A yasha is also fine if you need more mid game. On carry viper I usually skip it and buy the butterfly parts but it's pretty decent. I dislike manta on him though. Manta's actually pretty good on him cus of his poisons but I just don't like using it that much. With mek and aghs already it's going to be hard to have enough mana.

Treads -> Mek -> Point booster. (Into Aghs) If you have this @around 10-12minutes you'll be extremely tanky.
Played offensive trilane and got this, my supports went mid to gank and the opposite team tried to kill me. However I was too tanky and survived with ~20% hp. In that time my supports came and we got 2 return kills instead.

Viper is all about kiting. You can kill around any melee hero by yourself. Attack him with poision shit, move back if he moves to you, then attack again. -REPEAT.

Pretty fun hero to play since you can dominate any lane. (Almost))))

Phase > Treads

Makes better use of his orb walk + more movement + more dmg.

I generally just go tango/wraith and it suffices for a long time.
On extremely easy games - straight aghs.
On most games - Viper is usually played as semi-carry, therefore mek + aghs.

A lot of these build suggestions are really good.

He's pretty versatile, and his skills make him viable with various item sets, so you really should take into account your opponents when deciding what to go.

Treads vs Phse: Stats from treads rather than the speed boost for chasing (Edit: I prefer phase)

RoA, Mek, Drums: Figure out what your teammates want to build so you don't have 2 meks and no drums. I really liked drums on him my last game bc cm went mek. Drums added mana, hp, as, ms, and made catching ppl a lot easier with phase + drums. I actually had a RoA, but sold it for my aegis and had it lasted longer manta.

I went BKB and Aghs, then mkb.

I usually like to go for mek bc it's perfect for viper, but I use it more selfishly on viper than I do on a support, so my team is probably better off with me having drums and them having mek lol

your problems is the way you use viper.
treads -> mek or even basic boots -> mek then aghs is the main core

phase in a solo x solo situation is better than treads

phase/treads -> mek -> aghs
sometimes you can buy a RoA

Viper is really tough in some cases to win with, I tend to go solo safe lane or dual offlane and people will pick and go "viper carry" but viper gets out carried late game unless you have had an immaculate start.

Example: http://dotabuff.com/matches/561170771 basically a me vs weaver game

There are preferred and better ways to build Viper but truth is viper is just that easy to play and the deal with me is also the deal for you possibly. Don't just pick viper because...pick viper when it is viable to.

Doing crazy carry or utility or support or whatever they all could theorywise work just thing about when to play him and when to not. Always have a backup hard carry and use viper as an early/mid game killer who falls back later to more of a supporting assistance to your late game carry.

Take note: I am a good Viper/Doom/Mirana but simply because I sometimes just pick them because they are my comfort heroes does tend to cost the team the game. Not because you're bad or the team is bad but maybe it wasn't the best pick for that game.

EDIT: Some of your games are very old and meta for viper has changed a litte, maybe you will start to win some with some of the build suggestions from above e.g. MEK & Sceptre

I'd never buy phaseboots unless the opponent has a hero such as Broodmother, Nature's Prophet or anything that can block my way (bodyblock, creeps, units, anything).

TANKY VIPER, BEST [W]IPER

Havoc Badger, I dunno if your linked game is a good example. Your mirana was way underfarmed, she should've been the 2nd carry, and weaver is just way ahead of all of you in gold. Also I think your viper didn't counter many of their picks. Viper is good vs right click heroes and they only have one, weaver, and with his second attack on a fixed cooldown him losing some attack speed isn't a big deal. Timber and brew are both super tanky to deal with your poisons. It wasn't the best viper situation but because of their team makeup, not yours.

I will default pick viper to go mid often. Only direct counter I've seen so far is silencer. Anything else I can usually deal with. I think viper fits fine into any teams. You don't have to play perfect to carry with him late, you just need to build damage items over tank items like get mkb and butterfly before heart. That's why I consider aghs to be a support viper item if you have another super hard carry.

http://dotabuff.com/matches/567303559 pretty much perfect viper game go check replay maybe you ll get smth from this.

Viper mid is the best spot for him.

Mek is a good pickup for him, but I prefer a Ring of Aquila and Bottle. It's cheaper, almost as much armor, but better damage.

After that you can try to rush Aghanim's or build a vanilla Yasha for movement speed. (This is assuming you already have Power Treads). I think Yasha is preferred because Viper is slow (285 base MS) and your playstyle should be to kite heroes.

Late game I like Heart --> DPS items. Viper already has a built in cloak via Corrosive Skin and pretty solid AGI gain for armor (not to mention your items). You will outlast the enemy in teamfights because of your debuffs.

Here is my fifth ever real match:

http://dotabuff.com/matches/294535428

Aghs + Heart would probably have been enough to kill everyone. I think I went Boots --> Aquila --> Treads --> Aghs --> Heart --> Desolator --> Orchid --> Butterfly that match. My teammates were so bad (as expected at the time).

Couple viper questions I've never sorted out-

Poison attack doesn't stack with itself. Since it takes a full 2 seconds to tick is it wise to toggle it on and off between attacks or manual cast it? Cus your attack time is going to be under 1 second late game and it can drain your mana pretty fast.

Do poison attack and corrosive skin from your images via manta style stack with each other? Meaning two images plus you, you can put up three stacks of attack and corrosive skin on someone?

^ usually prefer to manual cast because it doesn't draw creep aggro, but if you're in a situation where you want to max your DPS without caring about aggro then autocast is ok

and I'm pretty sure corrosive skin doesn't stack, would be fucking broken

I'm not sure about the corrosive skin stacking, but your illusions can't use your orb effect, so that one is only your main. I don't think corrosive skin would stack, but I could be wrong.

As for manually casting your poison dot, if you're having mana issues, you definitely should. If your mana can handle keeping it on indefinitely, plus having enough to ult (with aghs), then why not leave it on? Personally, I manually cast it until very late game when I have aghs + drums or something like that where my mana pool is plenty big.

Illusions won't stack the effect.

Always manually cast Poison Attack in lane. It's the best harassment tool. With Aghs you'll have a lot of mana to use, so don't worry about spamming it. Remember with Aghs your ult is so much less mana costly, your mana pool will be deeper, and you'll have better mana regen (especially if you already have a RoB or RoA). Viper has pretty good stat growth for his playstyle.

Desolator is a really good pickup (if no one else will buy it) because it effectively accelerates your killing speed. The armor debuff means they take more damage from your right clicks and then start taking massive damage as soon as Nethertoxin kicks in hard (which is also a physical damage ability). You can manually cast one Poison Attack and then hit them a few times with Desolator. Rinse and repeat for best results.

Ok so I'm correct in thinking manta style sucks on viper? Illusions don't benefit from his poisons it seems, I'd much rather go naked yasha and then build towards something else more powerful.

I think they get the physical damage boost based on missing health, and they apply his toxin to anyone that hits them, just won't stack them. Manta is still useful for damage boost, speed boost, illusions for dodging/clearing debuffs. I probably wouldn't get it unless you need it. People typically aim for tankiness over pure dps.

I think manta is severely overrated if you don't have skills the benefit the illusions a lot like luna with glaives or am with mana burn. For example ring of aquila + drums is over 2000g cheaper, gives more dmg, more strength and int, a little less agi but the armor should be about equal with aquila armor aura, only 5 less attack speed and 5% less movement- for 2k cheaper! Manta is only worth it for the illusions and thus non op illusion heroes shouldn't bother imo. If you want the disable escape just go bkb.

Manta is a good late game pick up for the Ultimate Orb and removing debuffs. But you definitely shouldn't rush it.

I don't like Drums because it's a dead end item on someone like Viper.