In my one game of ember, and from most pro games I've seen, Phase -> drums -> deso is a fairly standard build. If you're getting involved in ganks and getting kills etc an early deso will wreck your enemies, and the debuff lasts longer than the cooldown of sleight of fist, so your subsequent attacks can refresh the duration for as long as you can use sof. After that crystalis into Daedalus is pretty standard, a lot of pro players even just stack daedaluses (daedali?) because more crit is best crit
The problem with stacking battlefuries is that the cleave direction is random, and your enemies generally aren't grouped up enough a lot of the time for the cleave damage to apply effectively, so single target damage is usually the best thing to go
Yeah i can see why they avoid the battlefurys and honestly i feel like its game dependent i just played a game with him where i started with battlefury and realized they werent really an in your face team other than troll and it cost me big time because i couldnt take true advantage of the cleave... though i shouldnt have lost... but you know team mates :D but thats dota.
yeah i was just unsure if it was drums deso or drums crits but i figured it was probably deso, Is it fine to just go deso crystlys battlefury ? or should i focus upgrading the crits ?
Stealing this image from Sampson
[Img]http://imgur.com/jHjyf0b.png[/Img]
So its actually best to leave it at crystalys and start getting a battlefury or two first then hmm ? Also, i found out that hard way ember cant quite man up on a huskar Lol stupid op hero(loljk)
When I'm winning I go straight travels bfury bfury dae bfury. If the game is close or you're losing and you have another carry, deso-crit-crit-crit gives you much stronger midgame at the cost of a weaker late game
Deso is nice for applying the debuff to everyone you hit but it doesn't actually increase sleight of fist dmg cus it's cleave dmg which is calculated off the first hit, not each individual's armor.
that image is assuming there are more than one target in the slight of fist area.
Also, while that is theoretically valid, it doesn't address the fact that Ember is squishy as hell and that in his early game he will do far more damage by using flameshield and spirits to nuke down opponents.
Rushing battlefury is not going to go well for most players, and even most pro players dont attempt it (singsing being a notable exception).
My personal suggestion is to get either bottle or arcanes first (follow up bottle with phase), go into drums, and then get a desolator. This is assuming you know how to properly use your spirits for both escape and nuking purposes. This is also assuming you are going for max flameguard first.
Stacking battlefurys is viable, but you have to have a lot of synergy and trust in your team. Most pubs do not have that.
I usually go phase drums (bottle situational) the graphic is just to show how much more dmg you can get from battlefury (there are alot of people just going for those big number crits and neglecting how much 'hidden value' battlefury gives. I dunno if it is just me but I cant seem to make arcanes work I feel like I end up wasting more mana BECAUSE I picked up arcanes (positioning)
phase vs arcane is based on your personal playstyle. TC will get bottle, arcanes, and drums because he uses so much mana in the early and mid games. He is also extremely good at last hitting so he doesn't need that 22 damage to help him secure last hits, and he likes to spam multiple fire remnants on his opponents.
Personally, i think most players would be best off with bottle/phase/drums if mid. If you are offlane, consider arcane/drums, and if you are safe lane carry, consider phase/drums and skip bottle. The way you build up ember should be based on your mana consumption, the role you are assuming in the game, and the amount of independence or support you are expected to receive from your team.
Keep in mind though, I have literally played the hero once. I'm speaking from a viewers perspective in pro and amateur tournaments.
I guess so, I throw in the odd arcane boots game in and it always leaves a sour taste in my mouth but that might just be from me being so use to phase
@Sampson
While theorycrafting and coaching etc are great, a player should always remember winning is what is important. If you perform better with phase boots, you should absolutely go for phase.
^
Whatever works, works.
What works for you may* not work for some.
Unless you're buying energy boosters on huskar.
Nobody said anything about Maelstrom and Mjolnir..!?
The 25% proc chance works quite well with Omnislash Fist Shit...
I learned - in legacy dota, to get Arcane Boots and Mjolnir... (Maybe a Wraith band or Aquilla along the way)
This works well for me, but I end up losing all Ember Spirit games so I quit him...
I hate Phase on Ember because he really needs mana...
'This works well for me, but I end up losing all Ember Spirit games so I quit him...'
huh?
Um... I have heroes which I almost always win with or lose with... I used to lose 80% tiny games even tho I played him quite well, same goes for ember.
But every time I pick Clinkz or random him, I win, even if I suck. Omniknight I always win, and I'm not a good Omni...
I also always lose with QoP, so I stopped playing her...
Its what I'm talking about.
@Siegfried
His answer was actually, "for more energy?".
It was pretty funny at the time so I didn't rage at all
@ Narandza
Legacy Dota = Dota 1?
If so, that build is way outdated, that build included bloodstone.
Mjolnir is still optimal, I'd just prefer battle furies as it increases your farm exponentially.
Though, if you have no fights or abilities to bring the enemies closer together, then it's best to perhaps stay at 1 bfury.
Therefore you can still breeze through stacked ancient camps (why does no one ever do this normally?).
- Mjolnir doesn't proc on ancients, bfury works though.
Ember doesn't really need mana if you know how to use TPs, and your ULTI.
This is also why I prefer bfury, for the regeneration to spam fist over and over.
The remnant also copies the movement speed of your current ms (including any slow-inducing effects, or even positive effects).
i.e. Phase boots and then remnant, the remnant that will be placed will travel faster.
This makes a difference to me, and arc boots would make better use on some other hero.
I find that when I play Ember mid, I tend to be extremely heavy on mana, and even getting arcanes doesn't cover it.
What is your guys thoughts on instead of spending the 1k to upgrade your boots, save another 1k for travels. Then instead of having 100 mana every 55 seconds (the 35 activation cost), you could instead have full mana and bottle charges every 60 seconds if you use ulti + travels?
unless you are playing against plebs who love to stand together as if they were RP'd, you should go deso ->crits
I think it's better to get 3 small crits then make daedaloi than the other way around. More consistent and easier buildup. 3 crys = 6450 gold 90 damage and in my experience you crit like 40% of the time.
You still do solid damage with 3 dae and deso late, the bfury build is just fucking ridiculous. If 2 heroes get cleaved from each other in one fist they lose a massive amount of hp and die if you crit.
People can't push or defend against 6 slot ES, it's just not possible. You need to blink hex/orchid him or you lose the game because everything else he just balls away and every fist = no creep vision uphill.
I remember seeing a game in Korea where an ember literally went 3x bfury crit bkb. He had an allied Magnus and someone built a linkens and spammed it on him 24/7
Yes, like I said a 6-slotted ember is an amazing carry and NEEDS to be first priority target.
Even with such annoying disables like doom, bane and batrider in one team - pretty much nullifying BKB
He can still prove to be annoying if he farms and plays defensively/uphill battles.
Ember is a garbage hero which has no use in this meta. I beat 4.5-5k MMR ember players in almost all my games.
Pseudo random distiribution;
The Dependent-random distribution (often shortened to DRD) in DotA refers to the statistical mechanics of how certain probability-based items and abilities work.
In an independent random distribution, every "roll" operates independently, but in a dependent random distribution, the effect's chance changes depending on previous results. In DotA's DRD, the probability increases every time it does not happen. In general, DRD is applied to these type of abilities following : Critical Strike, Bash, Damage Block, Chain Lightning, Maim.
In short A Crit that says it has 25% is actually 8.5% the first hit. and 17 the next hit and so on untill it actually PROCS.
meaning you can actually save up your potentional Crit/bash/dodge/block or whatever you want.
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While i personally enjoy just vomitting battlefurys everywhere and do find it semi effective, looking at top players they generally pass on it.
What is the item progession for them ?
Phase>Drum>(Ive seen crystlys eventually Daedulus and deso used here, i suppose maelstrom could be here as well but eh... i dont think so. what should be priority ? deso or crys?