people play the game for fun, you do not have to play dota with the intention of going to TI4
For the same reason that I played CS:Source exclusively in gun game and aim_map servers. I had no intention of getting good until recently when I played CS GO competitive maps
when you win its fun, when you win you like to trash talk which is fun there fore u must do everything to win for you to have fun... they also played betting games with high skilled opponents and i watched their games from behind and its like sigh-_-...
I like to win but some people do not care if they lose a million times they still have fun, it is just different personalities
but the problem is 4-5 year is a lot of time and they still dont improve.. then dota is a waste of time for them...
well, some ppl have more troubles during the long run, you know? some of them find the game too hard, eventhough they've been playing it for years..
the best way to improve (speaking for me) is seeing what you've done wrong and trying to do it right in similar situations in the future
some ppl just dont do it, so they keep making the same mistakes over and over
and about the lack of last hitting skills, sometimes they are talking to someone on facebook/phone/whatever and are just not paying that much attention that the game deserve, so they miss silly things. other possible answer is that they don't have patience to wait until the creep is low at health, they just want to hit it.
again, speaking for myself, the games where i play better are the games that I go full concentration. and usually those games are so mentally exhaustive, in the way that i can only play 1 or 2 of those games without a 1~2hours rest.
As I try to explain from time to time. Most people cannot process all the visual information of dota 2. Most people cannot think at the speed dota 2 games run. Most people cannot precisely, quickly, accurately click on things.
No about of practice or knowledge will significantly improve those mechanical aspects of the game. Because part of the problem is that they can't mentally process everything they see. They don't even know what is happening enough to know who did what when... to see and understand why someone died or lost a fight. When they win or lose they really don't know why.
Have an adult you know watch a dota 2 game. Most of them cannot see and understand what is happening. Honestly most people can't even watch and understand an American football play. There is just too much happening to fast. The limit for most people is an MMR so low people who frequently post on this forum would call it "trench tier" or whatever. Most people really cannot go past that because they are too slow not just with their fingers but with their visual processing as well.
Relentless is right with the analogy. I remember watching my friend play starcraft and i had no idea what im looking at. i feel like this deserves a dunning and Kruger post. LOL
"No about of practice or knowledge will significantly improve those mechanical aspects of the game."
Can you refer me to a peer reviewed journal paper to this factual claim?
It need not be in dota. In general, computer sports would do. I know that I.Q is a fixed measure after 16 years, so perhaps decision-making is screwed for many people.
But I think map awareness and mechanical aspects of the game are learned by practice.
I don't agree with Relentless about this topic. Yes, not everybody can mentally process all the information, but that's not the cause of people not improving. The cause is that people play without wanting to improve at all. I have friends who play the game since 2011 and they are 3k MMR, they don't think about pick strategy and don't have good decision making, laning notion, farming skills, nothing at all.
But that's because they play like idiots. They say 'hey I'll play Dota' then they click on "find", instapick Pudge/Void/any retarded hero and go on playing single player. It's not because they can't process; it's because they don't want to.
I've never heard of any friend who wanted really bad to get better, who watches competitive games, who watches replays, who reads about the game and didn't improve over time.
i nearly sat broke my window when i threw the damn mexican flag with a stick out of it
some people dont like to lose and take everything more serious than they should (ex:me)
and some people take everything casually (ex: your friends)
today wasnt my day i guess
fuck you god
"when you win its fun, when you win you like to trash talk which is fun there fore u must do everything to win for you to have fun.."
You are so wrong is not even funny.
Wait so you trash talk when you win ? god i hate people like you.
Its JUST a video game, some people just play for fun, they play because they like playing dota not because they like winning.
they just don't try to learn. they pick pudge in 50 games in a row and if they snowball in like 5 of them, it's more than enough for them.
@dorkly no i dont trashtalk .. more or less im quiet on a game... its my perspective view on my friends :)
meh.. even I just play for fun... and even if u play just for fun you are still learning from your games... i still believe it has something to do with the activity in our brain...
like i said, i taught my classmate for 2-3 months by watching competitive scenes... he's now much more better than my other friends who play for at least 4+ years...
LOL and DOTA 2 also requires less thinking than other games than you think when compared to something like starcraft 2... multi micro, APM, thinking what the opponents are thinking, macro, map awareness... the only thing it differs is that you play alone and no team coordination is needed... thats why i think DOTA 2 is a much more easier game than SC2 that requires fast micro ... im so tired of people who makes mistakes repeatedly... CAN THEY THINK JUST FOR ONCE-_-
If he's a long time friend of yours, by now you should know if he actually is trying to improve or if he just plays because he wants to spend time w/ you guys.
Some people play for fame. others for fun. and in some cases, for camaraderie(doesn't really like the game, only plays because you do).
Actually certain heros in doto need multi micro, maybe even a high apm at least some sc2 tard who played dota said that, thinking what the opponents are thinking is never bad if you want to win, and i guess mapawareness isnt bad neither?
if you have over 1000 matches and still remain below 4.5k~ rating then its a sign hes or she is a bad player
saying "i play for fun" is not enough
they like to do betting games and lose a lot... as a friend , i dont really like to see them lose .. i wanna try to tell them that they are not good enough so dont fight them.. ( i dont play betting games cause i dont take risks especially at high stakes).. but they dont learn everytime they fight a team they make that mistakes everytime...
I cant believe what you guys are saying, its like none of you really believe that some people just play for fun, dont you understand that even losing they have fun ?
You are all literally saying that if you are not top 1 % you are a bad player.
I have a friend that play one or two games of dota per week or sometimes not even that, he is pretty bad and he knows that but he doesnt give a fuck he just plays and he tries to have fun.
This is what i hate about this game, its like dota is becoming a culture instead of a game.
Edit: I think i understand what you are saying DK.peniel, your friends try to improve and still they dont right ? well in this case i dont know what to say, usually if you dont improve is because you dont really want to.
i play for fun and my rating is 6k XDDDDD GUYS I ENJOY LOSINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG its so fun right kill yourself thanks
Lets put this controversially. You can still win games by autoattacking, not being good at map-awareness and having subpar decision making.
However, improvement on any of these things will greatly improve your game at set you apart from your peers and help your overall improvement as a player. Lets take two of my heroes for example. Doom vs Axe.
Both of them are jungle heroes but Axe I play at a much higher level cause Doom is the hero I default on when I am tired or eating and while I can still play him well I don't (most times) play him at the same level I play Axe. With Axe I am constantly stacking camps, ganking lanes, and pinging/sniping runes from the mid. Whereas Doom I kinda right click creeps in the jungle while munching a sandwich or dozing off at the keyboard.
The player (me) remains the same but my game play and early game involvement is much different simply because of the little things.
"i play for fun and my rating is 6k XDDDDD GUYS I ENJOY LOSINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG its so fun right kill yourself thanks"
Some people have to work after playing instead of masturbating and going back to play dota again, if you have shit to do in real life you dont waste that much time trying to improve, i guess you dont understand that vivivi.
so whats the meaning of fun to you guys? doing troll builds on heroes? throwing the game like sh*t? pick viper/drow/kardel and harass ur opponents in ur lane like their is no tomorrow? auto pick pudge everygame ? farming all day long? beating low level players while in LPQ? no one pick support coz support no fun coz u have to buy wards, wards,wards,wards, courier? a game is more fun when its very intense win/lose as long as you did ur position/role fine...
i have a job, i run a fucking corporate business in new york and smash pussy every day while maintaining 5.5k+ rating what the fuck do you do besides crying?
DK, there are tons of people who like playing support. I do not see the point in discussing this since you think ever person has to be the same which is far from the truth in every aspect.
Some people just think they know best and refuse to learn. I kept telling this guy not to rush Heart after Arcanes every game, but he's still doing it. Or if he's playing an AGI carry, he's always rushing Butterfly. He has around 400 games played.
You know maybe some people just like to play 2-3 heroes max, enjoy them and dont want to learn more i agree with Dorkly on this and u will see when techies comes to dota 2 that he will be in every game cause is fun to play, more that the other heroes. If people didnt play for fun then u wouldnt see in 95% of the games in the picking phase 2-3 insta picks, carries/junglers 99% of the time
And please ignore that PC Terrorists/Playmates/Uber Players like that vivivivivivi guy, Y bro and i have 14K mmr 35 cm dick i crash pussy every hour and own 75% of MIcrosoft go kill urself now pls :S
Havoc Badger says, "You can still win games by autoattacking, not being good at map-awareness and having subpar decision making." And this is true. People will win about 50% of games... lets say at least 4/10 games even if they make no effort to win.
The only way you lose more than 60% is by actively, intentionally feeding.
Lots of people do not really try to become good at the game. But if most people try to improve as hard as they can they will end up around maybe 2.5k to 2.7k one or two standard deviations above average. There are close to 8 million dota 2 players now. About 2 million are between 2.2k and 2.7k. About 4 million are below 2.2k. About 2 million are above 2.7k.
People who are talented and seriously try to improve and win... the sort of people who post here, are nearly all in that top quartile. Everyone you normally play with and against is also in the top 2 million players. Many of you are so good at dota that you truly do not understand what its like for the 6 million who are below 2.7k... much less the 4 million who are below 2.2k. Most people cannot click on things when they choose to do it. They cannot see well enough to know if they clicked what they thought they did or not. They succeed on accident like a person with a blind fold on, bumping into things clumsily with their hands and finally grasping them, unsure of what they even grabbed onto for a moment when they get it.
Dota 2 is not easy. Its very, very hard. Most people cannot lasthit, cannot creep block, cannot watch the minimap and control their hero, cannot think about cooldowns and micro summons. Most people cannot orb walk, cannot cause their hero to move in a tight circle around a tower or juke into fog. They just can't do it. Yes, they don't put in much practice... but that's because its not worth it for them to practice. People know right away when they try to do something that is just too hard for them and they don't like to do it over and over because its hard.
People like to repeat things that feel good. Those few for whom playing dota is fairly easy keep doing it and practice a lot because they succeed in a few tries whenever they pick up a new hero. That is not the experience of most dota players. For most dota players what they try to do is amusing, silly. Who wins is random. 50/50 luck. They enjoy it because the game is beautiful to see and has funny voices. Some games you get Godlike!!! and some games you feed and both are fun, and funny. They do not play the game competitively because if they try to do that it is stressful and not fun.... because they can't be competitive, in any sense of the word.
Millions of people play Baseball. Nearly all of them have zero chance of playing at a college level much less in the Major Leagues. They do not play desperately trying to improve. It is not expected. Most people cannot precisely time the swing of the bat to hit a tiny ball flying at them at 150 kilometers/hr. And they are not sad that they can't. They play for fun. They don't try to reach a point after playing for years to be able to do it. And if they did try, no amount of practice would allow them to reach that goal.
The tiny handful of people for whom playing baseball is easy automatically win when young and move up, enjoy the success, practice a lot more and become great baseball players. The millions for whom baseball is hard do not take winning baseball games seriously. It is the same with dota 2 and everything else people do.
People who are ordinary at any task do not put much effort into working at it. They realize right away that if they did work hard at it there would be no gain.
I know it is hard to grasp for those of you at super high MMR, but the fact is having significantly over 50% winrate means you sometimes are so good it is impossible for Valve to match someone against you who can beat you. You are at the very top of the que, some % of the time. That is what the Dunning- Kruger effect really is. You are in a outlier position. You cannot accurately judge your abilities vs others because you are so very far from normal.
I never understood people like that. The people who introduced me to dota are at least 1500 mmr less than me, and they have been playing a year before I was shown the game and still play it.
You are better than them now because they stayed the same as they were and you had the aim to get as good as them at least but you did not stop improving after you got better than them. But you are still trash.
@ Dorkly " usually if you dont improve is because you dont really want to."
I do not know what sort of tasks you are personally bad at.. but like everyone there will be something. You know what it may be.
Something that is easy for others, but hard for you... you do not spend much time or effort trying to improve, why? Because its very stressful and frustrating. You could say that you don't really want to improve... but why don't you want to put in a lot of effort? It's because you lack talent in that area and improvement comes in tiny amounts compared to the effort you put forth.
You don't want to improve, because you can tell right away that you can't do it. You will say to yourself "I don't like it." You don't like it because you are bad at it. No one likes doing things when they fail and keep failing and can't get better. So when a person encounters something where they can't improve they either stop doing it, or assign a trivial value to success to remove the stress.
And so people say "its just a game", assigning no importance to success so they can remove the stress of trying to improve when they never will.
Relentless i agree that everyone has some kind of tasks that they cant do or they are bad at doing it, but i am sure that some people dont TRY to get better at dota, its not because they cant get better. One example its my friend, he plays one or two games per week and if i try to teach him something he justs ignores me, maybe if he tried he would be one of the best dota players who knows, i am 100 % sure that some people dont try to get better at the game, they just play.
^ IMO most experienced have forgotten what it's like to pick up Dota for the first time and take all their knowledge for granted. In reality it takes hundreds of games to learn all the heroes and items, even more before you understand more advanced stuff. Most players don't know the game well at all.
ye i think Dorkly is right
2 of my friends who introduced me to dota 'bout 1 year ago have been playing since early beta (>2years). They both have 3k mmr even tho they have double and more my number of games. They dont try to improve, they just pick the same heroes over and over and make the same mistakes over and over. If they lose, they laught at it, put the blame on OP heroes etc, dont try to see what are their mistakes. They also go afk in mid of a game on a regular basis to post a youtube video on skype chat and this sort of stuff(what makes me really mad) and throw in general for dumb decision making.
You can play football trying to get better or you can play football only weekends with your friends being really bad at it and still have fun, you DONT need to improve on everything that you do on life relentless, and even more if you dont really care about what you are doing. You are saying that some people dont care because they are bad at it, i am saying that some people are bad at the game because they dont care, they never cared at the beggining, its not like they tried to get better until they realized they coudnt, they just didnt want or didnt bother to get better.
Dota is not something special, its not a sport, its a game. People who plays xbox games or wii games are trying to have fun playing those games , the same with dota.
but the problem is my friends are really that devoted to dota 2... playing at least 3-4 hours a day and buy purchases items and keys... and like talk about combos or stuff like that...( im just like behind them hearing them talk cause i need to sit buy near my girlfriend or she will get angry :3) ... so in overall my problem my friends play for at least 4+ years ,3-4 hours a day, and talk alot about it that makes them dota addicts and still they show no signs of improvment... so yeah they treat dota special of course
"I cant believe what you guys are saying, its like none of you really believe that some people just play for fun, dont you understand that even losing they have fun ?"
Yeah but fun is very subjective
After you reach 4,5k+ MMR you just don't find it cool to play a game with retarded picks, no teamplay at all and pretty much no big clashes.
I'm starting to get bored even on Ranked MM, because there's just not the level of teamplay I have when I play with my team. Playing in a team is the most fun thing in Dota.
have the same issue with my rl friends
there are some reasons i figured out:
simply not too clever to stay focused
mechanically so shitty and you cant change it (synderen e.g.)
dunning kruger
no game sense: i am NO leader at all but i carry the games in that low bracket with my decision making, calls etc.
and the worst: blaming other people for everything -> which is basically dunning kruger
im 5k, low bracket =3k-4k
Even if you want to improve, its hard without someones help, and you cant help someone who doesnt want it. I have a friend who thinks his good at this game, but he only has his 3.5k couse his frien always support his ass and tells him what to do, still this guy argues a lot, thinks he knows better, but cant think out of the box, always wants to go with defaul builds and roles, Like he put a point in his E as mid, couse he didnt think his opponent will be the lich, and after 8 lvls, still 0 points in Q couse he went for another build when he didnt know hell be against lich. Wtf? Or when i left his bb lone as cm to go gank other lanes couse opponents already towerdive murdered me twice and i wasnt able to create space so left him alone for solo exp and come back with mid after we killed enemy mid. All he could see was i left him alone... Also, he builds midas on everything, and flames if teammate lc doesnt build it but goes phase drums couse team needs help asap. XD
Other thing, i improved with 300 when Benao told me i shouldnt have my camera on my hero all the time... i got used to it in wow, never even thought about it xDD i mean, now i know it basic, but didnt realise it alone... these things matter (i lost that rating now again, cant concentrate on game, thats also an existing problem for most ppl)
I am not saying that i think that its fun, i am saying that some people do.
I really hate people that tries to determinate all the roles and item builds by how the pro players get in every game, the other day i didnt get a blink on TA and some guy got mad at me.
There is nobody who is good from the getgo in doto, some learn quicker than others tho. I started playing doto1 against bots, I was proud when I managed to beat the bots. I didnt even know that you can combine items. Then some day a mate told me that you can combine items and so on.
I was in a boarding school during that time and I was the very worst player. So my first aim was to get better than the 2nd worst (we used to play a lot 5x5s on lan there about stuff like beer and food). When I managed that I just continued climbing the ladder of who was good until I could compete with the good ones in our school.
For my learning progress it was very important that I was told what is important. At the very beginning I used the guides on playdota to learn every hero a bit. Then later on I started playing online with my irl mates and they were pretty good already (some played against the rox.kiss team in a cw and won) and then they kept teaching me stuff.
I think I had like 4-5 different people teaching me stuff when I was really bad, but what I can suggest is, keep finding new people who are better than you, from those people you can learn the most. If you are the very best there is nothing to learn for you, all you do is help your guys to get better.
If you care enough that you want to improve, then its likely that you are talented enough that you can do it. So for anyone who does want to continue to learn and get better at dota. Don't be discouraged. Even the best take years to fill out their potential. If you really want to be good at something, its a strong sign that you can be good at it.
Please sign in to post comments.
i have classmates who play dota for 4-5 years and they still play like a child... ( no map awareness, poor last hitting skills, bad decision making, etc....)
some played since the first version of dota.. and sigh hes improving but little i guess about 10% every year i guess -_-....
or it has something to do with the brain that affects the decision making of the game?
i got a friend/ class mate of mine who is also vey good at dota and I am the one who encourage him to watch replays from competitive scenes.. after 2 months guess what hes now a very good support... and also we are performing good at academics too we are representatives of our school in quiz bee competition outside the school... not to mention we also play dota a lot and have social life too....
...so why do these people dont tend to improve anymore ? -_- did they already reached their limit? but our age is like 19-21 years old and its like the age of learning... and these friends of mine believe that they are very good and professional players already