General DiscussionNeed honest opinion about this game. Thanks! :)

You should've picked a stronger lane support than warlock and gone aggro trilane against the luna.

did you went midas?

Warlock is a trash trilane hero, you need slows and stuns in trilanes.

Alchemist isn`t as good at carrying as he used to be, Luna CAN outcarry him now.

CM fed like a motherfucker

2 desolators on same team

no mek

no pipe

no drums

haha luna can outcarry alch because "support alch" is becoming a thing now? pls dont fucking talk again for your own sake

[ESP*] Wink `Alchemist isn`t as good at carrying as he used to be``Hahahahah what?
Alch is stronger carry now,than before you don`t have idea what you talking about. He is just easy countered in competetive in current meta.

they are just better players

Watched your replay a bit

You missed a lot of last hits by running back and charging your stun, you even got your CM and you killed by Elder Titan.

Warlock is the worst trilane hero. Literally. The worst. In fact it's a pretty shitty support. Warlock is a much better carry with agh and refresher.

lol warlock

oh and yeah. 200cs to 350+ luna's obviously she outcarried you. Learn how to farm

Never run warlock in a trilane, If you're going to run a trilane, Try running it offensive ensuring you have a stronger trio and you can counter the opposing farm.

I didn't go for Midas.

I know how to farm, i can call myself a decent farmer. It's easy to say "learn to farm". I know I had a lot to learn, but i simply think that they were better players then us, in this game...

Thanks for Warlock tip, I will keep that in mind.

I know this wasn't best Alchemist in Dota histroy, don't worry guys.

Thanks for help!

Alchemist is actually a very weak hard carry now. He's got a crappy base hp pool now which used to be one of his strengths. Now his ulti is better between levels 6-11 but gets trashier after that because all he's getting is extra regen instead of the hp he needs though the rest remained the same. So you probably should have just skipped GG altogether in lane and just gone for a pure fighting alch to try and put some pressure on the other team, like going for an early soul ring and getting a push lineup. On top of that he's only useful half the time meaning he's somewhat weak in prolonged fight

And warlock's not a bad support in this game if the other team isn't going to punish you...it's just greedy, kind of like an ET support.

Seems to me like their team got way more farm across the board on every hero...and of course you're not going to counter a luna that has 748 gpm. You shoulda put more pressure on her once you got a quick shadowblade and then when she died taken towers to grab some control. Not going midas on alch means you have to be the one putting pressure on them after the 9-10 minute mark when your shadowblade is up.

One thing that surprised me is that your team doesn't have a mek. Also both your supports are ridiculously underfarmed. CM is one of the best farmers for a support so she should have had at least a bkb + mek/other item. Warlocks a bit worse but then again going aghas as your only item in 48 mins...prolly shoulda just focused on team items like ghost scepter+mek instead.

you should have made phase and lothar and start hunting luna after 10 minute mark

I dont see how warlock is a terrible support if you know you are going to have a 3v1 scenario. If you run some really weak early game carry like spectre and the enemy runs smth like an offlane dark seer/clockwerk with max rocket build the heal is very nice to have in lane. you are not rly gonna kill a clockwerk under his tower with a spectre as a carry anyways and he is extremely useful later into the game once he gets some levels and a scepter. We have seen visage players complete their scepter at 20 minutes in competetive games so I dont see where the problem is.

OT: I got to say I did not look at the replay but I dont really see the reason why you would build Mjollnir over AC on Alch. He has terrible armor and the enemy team did not have any real illusion hero or something that would require the mjollnir passive. Especially against 2(maybe even 3 looking at the ET's build) physical damage dealers I think AC would have been a better choice.

To all the guys saying how bad alch now is: Obviously he is getting outcarried by a Luna. Luna is one of the hardest carries in the game if full-equipped while alch (especially on the new patch) is only strong before the enemy carry becomes big. His strenght lays in the short time he needs to farm up and become a tower destroying monster around the 30 minute mark.

30 minutes is way too late for an alch to be peaking. The heroes almost useless at that point because if alch is farming for that long the enemy luna for example will have a midas hotd bkb and probably a manta.

like afyonlu said the right way to go around this is to start killing at 10 minutes. also skip GG entirely.

also lunas not one of the hardest carries in the game. she's a strong mid-early lategame carry which is why once she has a bkb you want to be fighting to make the most of her ultimate. being 6 slotted isn't anywhere near as beneficial on luna as it would be on a hard carry.

can name 10-15 carries that are harder carries than a luna but are nowhere near as effective in fights midgame.

^ ahahah please don't post here anymore. Alch farming for 30 minutes will have 239483240324234 times more items then luna farming for 30 minutes and will pwn her ass without much trouble mid or late or whatever simply because alchemist is a better carry

Well of course Luna is not a Faceless Void/Medusa/Spectre/Morphling but you can't rly draft those heroes in Matchmaking. They come online way too late while very strong lategamers like Luna, Tiny, Sven, Gyro, AM or weaver have a much better presence midgame (I know thats pretty much what you said :P). What I wanted to say is that a Luna is 2 steps above midgame carries like Alchemist/Pugna/Jug and that you will obviously get raped by a much harder carry with similar items.

Additionally: "ЗЕМЛЯНОЙ ДЕМОН's" Post gave me Aids.

Heck, have you ever played against a six-slotted Luna? she wrecks your shit with glaives

But, alch farms way faster than her, and if it ever goes to a 1v1 fight, alch wrecks luna without any problem.

u got outpicked
your heroes are ok (individually) but not vs that OP shit (combo of picks)

@opinionomnomnom

haha you are funny, ls trash.

http://dotabuff.com/matches/442505487
43 min 160cs
http://dotabuff.com/matches/426976672
35 min 123cs
http://dotabuff.com/matches/425404679
35 min 160 cs

I cba looking further, obviously when lowskilled shitfaces like you farm 1 cs per minute they will find life difficult.

You played good but Luna>Alch past 40 mins

Are people actually writing these posts? How the fuck is luna > alch past any minute? Luna will never leave the state of bash

^ Because Luna is not alone?

And alchemist is alone? :DDDDDD Is it 1x5?

No, but count the amount of hero counters Luna's team has against Alche's.

Your farm was actually really bad considering you're an alcehmist and the game has gone for about 50minutes. You should be 6 slotted bro.

Also as stated above, Warlock is not a good hero in a trilane. I dislike the hero overall in any lane tbh.

-You should rather go for the AC than the mjollnir. Rather get a maelstorm to increase the farm and when you get fat enough u simply sell the maelstorm for a better scaling item. Even a butterfly could be good!

Anyway, gl in the future.

ehm I cant even comprehend the amount of stupidity going out from you "ЗЕМЛЯНОЙ ДЕМОН"
You linked two games which I lost with alchemist and one complete stomb in which we played 2v5. Maybe not in your bracket but in my skill group, people actually push when they have an advantage/they win fights. Means you are gonna be locked in your base after 20 minutes if they early game did not go well which means that you have no space to farm.
I understand that 2.3 MMR players like you enjoy farming the entire game and then blame the team because they are "all bad/retards. feed 4v5" but I actually fight with my team. Feel free to check my CS from my antimage/PL/Spectre games for afk last hitting skills.
Luna wrecks the shit out of Alchemist in any decent skilled game and lategame. Trust me. You will be there in some time.

And what bracket are you again haha? Feel free to post a screenshot of your MMR.

No need to trust you, put luna 1vs1 against alchemist on even items and luna will get fucking wrecked. And that's ignoring the fact that alchemist will farm these items waaaaay quicker as i said above.

wut ? how can luna win against alch on a 1 vs 1 ?

The thing is alch farm WAY faster, so he should be 6 sloted soon, so he should go fight 6 sloted while luna is with 4 or 5 items.

I mean how is luna going to get out of the state of perma bash ?

I mean no hero will come online quickly than alch. Grevils greed anyone ?

LATE GAME ( really, really late ) luna is probably going to kill alch team while they fight, so we can say that luna outcarry alch, but the strenght of alch is the early game farm.

I mean he didnt need to go kill with shadow blade, he could just wait for getting 6 sloted and then instakill luna, i mean luna reminds me of gyro, they both sucks pretty hard on 1 vs 1 against melee carries guys, bash is bash guys .....

He just lost because the enemy picks were better, fucking veno if he doesnt get bkb and razor if he gets bkb, plus his farm was shit compared to luna. I mean luna only has glaves for late game, is not that good of a skill on 1 vs 1, alch atack speed will perma bash the shit out of her.

Edit: I am going to do a 1 vs 1 alch vs luna everyone 6 sloted, pretty sure alch will win but we have to try right :DDD

He is retarded leave him alone

Ok. Let me crtisize this game...

First ban timbersaw? a gank heavy/lineup dependant situational hero. Sure he can snowball with farm, but he's nothing without a decent team. He's no Tusk or slark. 2nd, you First picked CM, why? ?? ? Picking TA 4th, then they picked veno on the field?

Warlock didn't heal when your channellilng your stun at 2:39, if he healed CM or you sooner nothing like this woulda taken place. NO stacking nuetrals from either CM or Warlock on top lane. Early game, You guys only won mid lane and not buy much, considering razor ganked.

CM taking early kills from TA/Mirana is questionable too. Well at least that veno kill is contestable. TA rambo'ing in bot with DD causing luna to die for TA & CM. A bad trade considering she gave her location out hitting veno's ward.

Warlock needs lessons 101. He doesn't link before ulting. I don't think he knows the spell order. Honestly having him as your own person pot machine is nice, but seriously he needs to take down a tower with 3 ultimate attempts. is pretty sad. Imagine if rhasta stacked and warded ancient stacks 3 times instead of pushing towers with ult. Yea it's that kind of bad. Meanwhile CM has no presense bot. You guys left Luna uncontested.

From then your team just go into stupid fights one after another. Notably warlock and team got baited into the fight after linking then eat Luna & Veno's ult for lunch. Another bad forced teamfight mid that went horribly bad, if you guys only ran back mid instead of the side, your warlock woulda ultied and changed the fight.

Finally at 27 mintues warlock finally does it right. You guys pick up 4 for 1. Stupid roshan fight, Luna's timing was pefect, sad considering you guys had vision and everything. Not sure if POTM's ult was late or you guys not talking but if he ultied sooner maybe it woulda been different? Then again they coulda stolen roshan and you guys had to fight in 2-3 of their ults.

Another bad fight, using potm's ult and warlock's ult to initiate diving bot tower. You guys have no escape mechanism afterwards. Last top fight sealed the game.

Final thought: Your team is only as strong as the weakest player. Then again, Warlock since he was going support should gotten mek/pipe instead of sceptor considering you guys wasn't gonna push at 6 anyways. You guys was playing 2v5 with this TA/CM/Warlock combo. Mirana was probably the only decent ally.

This is why I really hate playing 1-5 roles. Players who are AHEAD, notably TA should help in buying wards so their allies don't fall behind in items. Having a BKB/deso/blink dagger TA and no mek/pipe on your team vs. a magic burst heavy lineup is so shortsighted.
Finally Game dependent heroes like warlock should be played by a team captain or someone who isn't on their 300th game.

@russian dude and aiaiai
what you're neglecting is the fact that luna is going to half kill alch's entire team with eclipse + glaives/manta illusions and alch won't be able to bring her down fast enough due to the evasion of fly + lots of armor + sizable ~1800-2000 hp pool (without satanic). if you want to test this theory out go give an alch a phase midas SB AC abyssal and bkb (all the farm you're gonna get in 30 mins) against a luna with a treads midas HotD manta bfly bkb

lunas also able to keep up with alch pretty decently due to the fact that hotd allows you to get good stacking in and glaives whereas alchs only wave clear spell is spray which is pretty horrible outside of ancient stacking which he can't even do without his team doing it for him. she'll obviously be at a lower net worth but she won't be too far behind.

you're being quite ridiculous with this "get six slotted and go win the game" strat. for one luna is a way better pusher than alch due to glaives wave clear + lunar blessing gives her amazing impact at the start of a game and at the end in terms of pushing power. which means alch will just get pushed down if he tries to pull off this afk farming strat. secondly the 4 slotted luna i talked about above can't get bursted down fast enough by the alchemist to make up for the fact that luna can rape alchs team with her ulti+manta illusion glaives since pretty much level 11. the only way alchs team has a shot of winning that fight is if he shadowblade concoctions luna before she gets her bkb off which should never happen in a 5v5 scenario where lunas team is pushing (or the other way around) because teams should have sentries. 35% evasion + 20 ish armor on luna even after AC/spray + 1800-2000 HP pool on luna + finding the right luna with manta illusions is pretty hard to bring down even for a six slotted alch. and this is assuming luna's team is just letting her get permabashed, which again is a problem because alch is a melee hero whos obviously gonna get kited.

On your example alch only has 2k or so more gold than luna, i really believe that alch should at least have 3k or so more farm than luna, alch doesnt even need to clear ancient camps or stacks, actually grevils greed gives him a lot more money if he kills normal camps.

Almost all items you get on luna are about survivability ( bkb, satanic ) so her damage its not that high, plus her aoe damage is not even close to gyro and dusa.

I think he only needs to go on melee range and abysal luna to start to perma bash, plus personally i think you are giving glaves too much importance, its not like your team is going to get wiped by some atacks, 35 % damage redution per bounce. Plus how much damage does luna per hit with those items ? like 200+ ? i think alch will do a lot more damage ( 30 min he should be lvl 16 right ? ) with his insane atack speed.

I think if instead of abysal he had a basher plus mkb he would easily beat her, i really think alch can farm that before her.

Now, alch beating luna ( pretty quickly ) its what would happen on a 1 vs 1, but i agree that he would get kited on a 5 vs 5 scenario and that luna would have more space to hit people than alch.

I just dont understand why people think she is so awesome late game when she is so squishy and she doesnt really do a lot of damage, gyro seems to scale WAY better late game, and lets not even speak about medussa.

When i see luna really working is when people gives her an aegis and goes to push at lets say 30 min or 40 min.

Anyway what i posted on my comment was : "wut ? how can luna win against alch on a 1 vs 1 ? "

and i still believe this, no range carry will beat a melee carry on a 1 vs 1 thx to bash.

About op game, the guy got counter picked really hard, even late game there is no way that he would be able to hit anyone, but i still think you can easily draft alch against a luna and win.

Edit: " Luna is one of the hardest carries in the game"

I disagree SO hard, pl, spectre, dusa, void, gyro, am (not sure about am ), CK ( 6 sloted ck is a motherfucking beast ) maybe even skeleton king ( natural lifesteal and crit makes him able to buy other kind of items, plus 2 lives ) and tiny can outcarry luna, that doesnt mean that they are better carries, it means that 6 sloted any of those carries would beat luna.

Yes we clearly forgot that alche's team will group together in a nice little area with no other units (no creeps or anything) and will get wiped out by glaves and beams. Silly me.

what a fucking bad draft

Your trilane was rather bad. Warlock is very level dependant, thats the reason people play him as an offlaner, also he has no reliable cc whch is needed in a trilane. Also your item decision pretty much cost you the game, you had no health and no armor, therefore luna was able to stomp you down since you were rather squishy.

In the end you acually lost the game not only by bad drafting but also by your terrible item decision.

If you got midas before 6 minutes or so your farm would of been much better than the lunas if your in a tri lane its likely you would of won your lane so the cm should of used the jungle for exp and gold and the warlock could of helped elsewhere letting your farm , AC is normally a better option on alch and maybe more pressure on the luna , luna will out carry you if you dont get mkb and she has a butterfly , ganking the luna with your shadow blade should of been easy , if you took fights in the mid game with a warlock you could of won them slowing the luna down making sure you have a big farm lead on her. Luna is squishy before bkb satanic and a AC would of made here even more squishy. Overall you needed to farm more , put more pressure on luna and get a AC intead of a moj

And i do play alch alot and thought he was a better carry before the update but i like him in the mid game so i play him carry or mid

^
his new ult made him so much more stronger in the early/ mid game. I do also think that hes overral better now since he can farm alot better now which is the whole point of alch, to outfarm everyone as soon as possible.

I used to like have more hp though but your right the regen is insane in the early to mid game I love alch because of the rate he farms

yeah so lunas team is just gonna sit there and let luna get permabashed makes sense who needs force staffs stuns and kiting anyway

and yeah of course the enemy team is gonna let an alchemist with a midas farm for 30 minutes uncontested makes sense. whats pressure

oh yeah and in lategame seeing as a majority of the fights are around the rosh pit lunas ulti isnt going to be hitting any creeps and you're going to be pretty clustered. and the problem in the game that i was talking about was that alchs team was getting pressure whereas lunas not being contested whatsoever. its not a freefarm scenario.

The other team has a really great teamfight (Titan, Veno alone are bad for you and they got razor luna and a rubick too). They have a mek, they have a pipe, they have drums. They have ac and deso.
They have an insane armordebuff with Titans aura, the ac, razors ult and his deso. Thats means a shitload on extradmg for them.

Your team has a pretty bad teamfight compared to them, no mek, no pipe (must have against this kind of heros), no drums, but you got 2 deso for whatever reason, ac is missing.

No mkbs to counter evasion, looks like TA was working on one.
About your itembuild, no armor no life. You failed a bit in terms of farming in this game, luna completly outfarmed you with 200gpm more.

With proper teamplay you could have had a chance but warlocks itembuild alone is enough to say you didn't had teamwork or communication.
You got outpicked too.

PS: Warlock is a weak trilane hero.