Problem with Invoker is that to be useful to the team he needs levels and throwing him into a trilane will see him leveled at the same rate as the rest of the team. This becomes an issues as you ideally want to take the mid to be 2-3 levels ahead.
Meepo I totally agree and blink/poof is not that tough although playing the hero might actually be. Issue with Meepo is that he is easy to counter and if someone picks a Meepo people go "Oh shit a Meepo player" and they pick the counters which is like 95% of the hero pool for him.
Also I feel a common mindset is the "one carry to rule them all" one. There is no ultimate carry with some better than others but also as a rule its good to run dual carries with one mid and one late so you can scale well from early/mid/late without worrying that your Viper will fall off to AM because you have a Void lingering about listening to jungle tunes and farming it big.
I was thinking of these heroes in competitive terms like Captains Mode.
You will definitely not be as high leveled as if you had gone mid with Invoker, but Invoker is currently really weak in it. I think a real major flaw in his carrying potential is that Invoker is not meant to be played from behind.
Meepo's biggest asset would be three things; tankiness, farming ability and split pushing. If you're gonna pick meepo, you'd pick it last or 4th pick. Meepo's potential is insane but he's just really, really, really hard to use. The amount of pressure on you to manage all that micro can be insane.
A farmed meepo is god because, he cannot be picked off easily due to his insane tankiness. Meaning you don't have to worry unless its a 3 man gank or crazy strong 2 man gank (Bane+DPS). Poof just takes a second for you to escape. Meaning if you have great micro skills you won't die (Meepo countergank or poof escape), you can split push stronger than cancer can and be anywhere on the map with five boots of travels + meepo positioning poofs.
The only 'real' counter to a meepo is shutting his early game down. Or him messing up micro. These two happen very frequently though.
Playing Invoker as a right clicker with spells has been quenched quite a bit because right click Invoker takes away from the power of his spells and combo's... e.g. euls into the big 3 or sunstrike. Forcestaff / blink / agha etc. are essential to Invoker for positioning and mobility in team fights which he would not have if he went for a right clicking build.
I have seen such a build work but it is a 2/10 success rate and just isn't a good way to use an Invoker. I do however agree with you on the Meepo, he needs to come back into pub games a lot more.
If you don't contest meepo in the laning stage he will roll over most pretty much every agi carry and all other carries for that matter in the mid game where he will be lvl 16 where other carry will be ~11 or ~13 if he picked up a midas.
However I think an alch with freefarm who goes shadow blade first will just come to his lane 10 minutes in and kill him, tiny would do quite well against him as well (craggy, massive burst damage, aoe stun).
The weakness of meepo is he can be more easily shut down by supports than other carries, and can't get a bkb.
In my bracket if someone picks meepo they are actually competent with it. Its so frustrating to die to cause you get netted then slowed so you cant even move or invis. Feels overpowered when its versus me, however I can't play that hero for shit myself.
Problem with meepo is you can just trilane vs him, and he kind of sucks in a trilane.
If I see a Meepo on the enemy team I like to grab my homey, Lich. Meepo don't like chain frost...at...all.
:D
^
good meepos just poof u 2 death.
You cant rly do anything against it. Meepos poof in and your dead. Also we meepo players love to get sheepstick.
I agree, a good meepo will destroy squishy supports in a matter of seconds but gets countered by any sort of AoE or any of these "pick off spells (had no idea how to call them) for example Pudge's hook/Batrider lasso/clockwerk or Disruptors Glimpse). Sven (and possibly even Kunkka) sh** on Meepo pretty hard as well.
btw, I am pretty sure that you can not poof out of Chronosphere, am I right? If that's true void would be nice against him as well
^
The pick off spells are only good if you have your team. Otherwise we just poof to the picked off meepo and destroy the guy who tried to pick off a meepo.
And even AOE spells are not always a real counter, since good meepo players dont run in a 5manmeepopack. You can let your team initiate fights and then after AOE spells have been used you can jump right into the action. So saying that AOE stuff is a counter is not really true.
The only counter to meepo is to shut him down. Thats the only real counter and yes your right. you cannot poof out of crono, but meepos will usually be 2 tanky 2 kill since they farm much faster than void ever could.
Why do meepos farm so fast? Do the other meepos give you xp range (unlike say pl's illusions which just get you the gold)?
@Mark:
Every meepo clone gets EXP & gold. it means that you basicly get the exp + farm as if you played that many heroes.
So when your level 6/11/16/aghs you can farm as if you have 2/3/4/5 seperate heroes. Thats why meepo levels & farms faster than any other hero.
oh look, my custom controls screwed up, im abandoning the game cya all bb
sounds trash to me
Isn't meepo the strongest split pusher?
After watching the so-said best meepo in the world a.k.a N0tail, all he does is farm aghs/BoT and split push all day
meepo farm fast sure.
But can he get to the stage where he actually farms fast?
lvl 1 to lvl 6 meepo, how is he gona farm in lane? lane harass with net+poof?0 mana and ded.
How can the enemy be so bad to let meepo farm the whole map?
In a real scenario meepo is limited to a few places to farm if the enemy is any good,you'll be better to use your meepos as a ward.
@シリマセン, thats like saying am with bfury is retarded because the enemy team won't let you farm.
You have 4 allies too who can do whatever shit they need to do. I said trilane meepo to give meepo uncontested farm. Lol if you play at the level where you supports steal your exp, then don't bother. Poof does hurt like a bitch as a nuke even early game. You wouldn't pick meepo against an aggressive trilane.
IN A REAL SCENARIO, you wouldn't pick meepo against a lineup particularly strong against him.
IN A REAL SCENARIO, you protect the meepo and stack camps to give him insane farm.
IN A REAL SCENARIO, the meepo player would be good enough to micro manage all his meepos to not decrease the chances of dying to ganks.
^
IN A REAL SCENARIO, meepo would take solo lane or mid, leeching exp until hes lv 6, then gank & farm the shit out of the map.
If you play meepo like a hardcarry, then your doing it wrong. Meepo is not supposed to sit in lane and farm all game like alch, am, morph and so on. Due to his ability to be overral on the map, he often fucks up every lane.
@badger
been busy all this while, finally some free time to play haha..
@op
low prio scrub player. abandoned game because he do not know how to micro the real way , using tab and clicking heroes instaed of his custom hero control key assigns.
edit : im doing so much better without u btw, cold truth
@Blunt @ Fnatic, yeah Meepo is generally a snowballer killer/split pusher. However, lane leeching for a solo lane can be too risky to do. This thread is more about thinking about him alternately as a hard carry possibility which isn't normally done. He does have potential as a hard carry though. A good example of this would be carry tiny.
@Ming
http://pubstats.me/91383648/
http://pubstats.me/79386310/
And I play like a lazy low prio thrash player who abandons/throws when he doesn't feel like playing anymore.
You've thrown games for me before and flamed me when I pointed out how shitty your alch was. I don't get why you're so pissed I abandoned a game I didn't feel like playing. w/e.
The main problem with meepo is he steals all the exp from teamates leaving them mostly always underleveled.
Thats the funny thing because you always want to give your carry the exp/gold. You don't want too deep into late game with him though and instead you'd want to snowball him up and end the game or secure raxes.
![[Lk].Zano](https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/b9/b98e01ce6ef4a5e926a44cdd1564d0e8e5fbfa36_full.jpg "[Lk].Zano")
A successful snowballing meepo; so high above your level you don't matter anymore.
A successful carry meepo; has over 2000hp before midgame even starts so instant kills are bye bye.
Any unsuccessful meepo; feeds like no tomorrow and never catches up because meepo is not a hero played from behind.
Meepo is sort of a hit or miss character with a small window of opportunity at the start. For the carry meepo, his window is wider.
lol thats the problem with people nowadays, they believe too much in 3rd party statistics
how the real mmr works is actually too complicated for 3rd party statistics to fetch info.
on my smurf, all my games were "very high" and they're all worse players than u.
while on my game, "high bracket players" are as good as my local esports team, and when i got into "very high", usually i depend on my really good friends to win.
your "very high" could just be my "high" .
i dont really trust 3rd party stats too much, they're all false hope.
judging from the way u play, i'd say if u were to meet opponents i usually meet, you'll be just a "normal" or "high" bracket player in a sense.
why? most of my recent games played, i checked each and everyone of their stats. alot of them are mostly in "very high" but they still play like shit
according to
http://dota2rating.info/?player=76561198051649376
your average compared to the site's average are lower. which translates into another language saying on that site, you're not as good.
while http://dota2rating.info/?player=76561198039652038
my plays are better than the average by quite a sum.
you're only a good farmer but a bad team player.
want me to show u more different statistic sites?
and this is my friend who's an ex lowyat e-sports member
http://www.dota2rating.info/?player=76561198064433662
i'd say he's 10times better than me
Regarding brackets, they retrieved it directly from the game and brackets are categorized via regions. Meaning the Normal, High and Very High that you're in, I'm in it too. Brackets were given by Valve themselves, not by third party websites. They only retrieved it. Which is why they're no longer available because Valve sealed them off.
Ironic you say not to trust 3rd party websites because its them that consider you a better player and Dota 2's own rating that considers me better.
But really, w/e lol. If you think I'm absolute thrash because I abandoned then don't play with me anymore.
^
uh not really, if u take ur time to see, different 3rd party sites have different ratings
Yes it is. 3rd party websites retrieve information through the API which includes skill brackets (which Valve has just removed).
But honestly, like Blunt said, this is a dickfight and I'm not interested in debating more on e-penis. Respond if you want but I won't.
the guy that said you leech from your teammates. I think he is right. meepos usually farm 2 places at a time and not more. meepo is not good later in game compared to other carries.
yes you want your carry to farm but you also need your mid, offlane and jungle to farm. e.g. if furion keeps on ulti for global farm, it have a huge impact on rest of team. same goes for meepo. OK at 20 main u are strong and tanky but rest of the team is low on level and farm compared to enemy. at 25 mins enemy carry feed on your low level team and gets farm exp around meepos.
and than later in game when enemy carry gets heart and bkb, meepo is not a very good match to him.
besides in organised game any alone meepo will be disabled to death cuz of wards and good disables available.(that is when split farming)
am n pl farm faster and safer than meepo, if u micro all your meepos to farm almost every spot on the map any team with decent coordination will find one and kill it. plus i have yet to see a meepo go hard split push. he lacks in heavy right click potential and bkb ignores his poofs. he is a mid game carry, probably the strongest. but against any hard carry late game he will get crushed
Safer, yes. Faster, no. Meepo's weakness is his fragility early on. This plus the fact he can't catch up means he only has a small window of opportunity.
Lets go through what you said. Split pushing wise, with BoT. He can be anywhere, and if its simply to lanes, he does it faster than a Furion. Please do not underestimate the right click potential of a Meepo. Five meepos down a tower quickly... lets just put it this way, assume he only hits 1 attack per second (which he will obviously be faster), his base damage of 100 means yeah... it hurts.
Poof doesn't go through bkb. So doesn't call down. So? He has a passive slow that goes through BKB and provides DPS.
And no, Meepo doesn't get 'crushed'
Heres an example of Meepo going against well farmed hard carries and semis;
http://dotabuff.com/matches/344608342
With over 20+ armor with cuirass aura and 3.5k hp, noone is rightclicking you down fast, m'dear.
Anyways, I never said Meepo is the best carry, its just a carry people don't usually think about. Why are people so against this idea? Giving Meepo farm so he's all set for mid game is fine in my opinion. It lets him snowball easily.
^^ "but against any hard carry late game he will get crushed" LOL no: http://dotabuff.com/matches/253312001
I feel as if Invoker could work well in a defensive tri. With roaming supports such as ES/Naga, or just one support pulling consistently, it might have a chance. I feel like orchid might be the only way you could play him in such a way though. Orchid gives you a soft spell lock and the mana regeneration needed to cast spells while also boosting damage slightly as well as attack speed. Then you would just AC/Deso and Quas/Extort it up, even Quas/Wex might be decent or Wex/Extort, using Wex for the speed buff to chase down fleeing heros.
there are exceptions to everything badkernel. each game is situational based. maybe the meepo was more skilled than the rest of the players. plus that game is from normal bracket and not to be an elitist but there are a lot of shit players who play carry in that bracket .
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1. Meepo
2. Invoker
Meepo farms faster than an AM. His new agahim bonus gives him huge carry potential. Safelane tri can net him an agahim at 10 minutes (its cheaper than a bfury) and he can clear jungle while laning. He carries in the sense not that he has huge dps, but because he's unkillable. A simple reaver + agahim gives him 2.5k hp and if you're safelane and given jungle farm... thats definitely before 20 minutes. So you got 4 meepos up (assuming you're post level 11 by 20 mins...) each with a huge amount of EHP, since meepo has high armor.
He's worse than cancer with BoT. He's the tankiest carry out there. Good microing keeps him at full hp at all times. His slow goes through BkB. He doesn't have the one weakness other carries have; he's thick as fuck.
Best thing, he levels the fastest and farms the fastest. NO HERO IN DOTA farms faster than a well micro-ed meepo.
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Invoker is a spell powerhouse with considerable rightclick dps. An awesome invoker has your screen filled with spells. I get that he needs levels, which means the supports will have to not leech exp. A tri cures him of his weak early game and lets him farm up. I guess he's weak against BKB intensive lineups (naix/gyro) but against unconventional ones like weaver, he might do pretty well. If the invoker is good that is.