@Mark im talking about higher skilled games , not normal.. when you get there you will know what im talking about
@kikzimon
Two of the heroes that Mark mentioned can do extremely well, regardless of skill level. They are certainly situational, however. Tiny is a great early game ganker against pretty much any lineup, and scales well against agility/int based comps. E.S. is a good source of stun that is particularly viable against heroes like PL and Brood. Omni on the otherhand... he tends to struggle most games. Granted high skill players can make good use of his free bkb and well timed heals are essential to securing kills
bloodseeker: one of the tankiest agi heroes in game with high ganking capability. prema DD enabled
omni: one of best supports for trilanes and ult is MASSIVE lategame and free bkb
sniper: shitpick i agree. drow more viable (has silence,aura,slow)
tiny: aghanims,daedalus,mjol GG also very heavy magical damage , anti-melee carry
earthshaker: blocking with Q, powerful ult , stuns
i hope i never end up in VH. some people i see here are worse than normal bracket russians.
And there we go again. Thats why the vh bracket is as shitty as any other brackets, because of people like the OP.
The only heroes i rly consider gargabe are brood, elder titan, medusa, pa and wr.
Brood: Any AOE carry will farm on her spiderlings and make her a huge goldmine, also shes useless once shut down.
Elder titan: Skills are so hard to hit, especially when your again mobile heroes.
Medusa & pa: Is far to useless early game, they need way to much farm.
Wr: Stun and magic damage wrecks her, also shackles are not reliable, mid & late rather useless.
Even though i consider those heroes garbage, doesnt mean that everyone is gonna play them bad. Ofc there will be some people who plays very good as one of those heroes, but other heroes are far more useful and better than the ones.
@Darkness:
Bloodseeker: Agreed, hes also one of the leeroy heroes, basicly you go in like a fag 1v5 kill someoe and have pretty much full health again. I love how you can yolo as bloodseeker.
Omniult < diffusual. Its useless mid & lategame.
Sniper can be a real pain in the ass, lategame his ministun and damage are idiotic, also his ult makes it easy to get nice frags, even on invis targets. I usually prefer him over drow, unless i get some good ranged heroes in my team.
Tiny mjiollnir? Bad idea. Manta, AC, Aghs, Drums, Blink & butterfly > your bad build.
Es is a stunlocking beast, also his ult can be powerful as fuck, he does have huge manapool problems early, thats why most people struggle playing him.
^
As for omni.Not all people build diffusal. Also your ult should be mainly used for your carry. That has your free bkb and cant be purged.
I only played 1-2 tiny games and owned with that build. Dunno i try yours later.
^
i would own with mjiollnor on lina. Just because it worked 1 or 2 times doesnt mean its always working & it doesnt mean its good :D
For the omnithing, well thats the issue, the ult doesnt rly protect people, even if you would protect the carry, people would just go on rape you instead, so theres no support anymore. Omni also has trouble when it comes to early game, his shitty manapool and the fact that hes melee makes early game rly hard for the lane aswell.
There just much better alternatives like dazzle. That was my point, there not garbage because they are unplayable, but they are useles because there just better heroes.
earthshaker and tiny are such a great heroes. even omni has his uses. clearly op has no idea what hes talking about.
^
well he does have a point though, they are not completely useless, but there just better heroes
^
Lion -> Spammable stun, basicly unlimited mana, hex and nuke. How the hell is he garbage?
Meepo -> Splitpush, extremely high aoe dmg, perma aoe disable (not even kidding here), gets faster exp than anyone in the game. How the hell is he garbage?
I think Elder Titan is good for situational picks. Brood is very situational. You basically need a bad line up from the other team for it to be useful.
Medusa for sure. There are carries that are both better fighters AND farmers early on. She just takes so much time to get rolling.
@Pilot
I have an 84% win rate with Elder Titan over 13 games. I think he is a fantastic hero in a solo lane that adds a lot to team fights.
Well Tiny and Pudge are the most fun heroes in the game. It might not be fun for you to lose but that what this community does. They don't care about other people.
^^
Play against decent people and you will find out that solo lane is not a fun lane. And his ult only is useful if you have an AOE stun or slow, or just idiots as enemies.
Dude, I mean there are heroes that can be considered "not-fun" but Tiny is not of them. Also he isn't just a mid hero. Also I don't even play mid.
^
you know that ^^ means 2 up right?
I agree with you completely, throwing people away or in is way 2 hilarious.
Some people have this mentallity of " if this hero is not played on pro games he is not a good hero ".
Personally the only hero that in my opinion is "bad" its sniper .....i am probably wrong but i dont think how he can outcarry the rest of hard carries late game.
"Well Tiny and Pudge are the most fun heroes in the game. It might not be fun for you to lose but that what this community does. They don't care about other people."
The day i stop having fun playing dota i will just quit ..... guess its just me .... sometimes i forget about how serious business dota comunity can get.
Pudge aint never a bad hero. It offers so much to the team when played well. Strong ganker, good tank,positioning around the map is unpredictable with smokes, runes. Hugging tower can still be dangerous, able to initiate. Able to capitalist on opponents that are out of position, even though they might not be. A sorta stun,a slow, ult that goes through bkb
Even when played as a support,during teamfights,hooking that bkb void or pa etc,then ultimate, may just win you the fight. Also as a solo mid, a pudge off the minimap means opponents have to play more defensive which may restrict their map control and farm. That's all. I love pudge please fuck me pudge.
I don't agree with the Elder Titan one. He is strong as fuck, as we start to see him being more and more picked in the competitive scene.
I mean, look at this: http://i.imgur.com/Wf0ppUH.png ROFL
Its very satisfying seeing a fight breaking out, carries trading blows, then running up and watching as the enemy starts melting 2x as fast thanks to ET's op as fuck imba passive.
@Blunt I know very well how much hard lane solo can suck. Ive fought a few scary dual lanes and come out on top, and survived vs trilanes. Astral Spirit was MADE to compete in a solo lane.
Well this is one of those lanes where nobody stants a chance, unfortunately ET can't just go jungle
@not a tryhard
I think there is a bug. Wrong numbers. I mean TC removes the natural armor a hero has therefor startingarmor + base-agi/7.
It does not nullfy the armor gained by items.
@tehmastesword
Stats which are based on low counts as any statistical value seems to be not suffiecient. If you would play 130 and maintain such winratio I would be impressed. Actually anything with 100+ games and +10% average winratio is impressive.
I could argue the same with brood, argueing her not being a bad hero but I provide way higher number amount of games and an atleast +25% winrate on the hero that has the lowest winrate of them all.
http://dotabuff.com/players/133212901/heroes?metric=played&date=&game_mode=&match_type=
http://dotabuff.com/players/82211644/heroes?metric=played&date=&game_mode=&match_type=
http://dotabuff.com/players/82325345/heroes?metric=played&date=&game_mode=&match_type=
@topic
I thought this thread is gonna read a brood-hate-thread :D then i saw OP got proven wrong, then i read authors name :P
In general I do not think there is any Garbage hero, but I believe in players not performing well with their heroes as well as facing counters to their actual hero. For example I could send potm against 5 tanky dps carrys and she would perform horribly because its one of her weaknesses. However she is not considered a garbage hero.
You might aswell talk about barathum which seems to be the nightmare of pubgames. One could argue that he devastates any hero but one could also argue that he devastates players and their not cautiosness.
TL;DR
Garbage heroes do not exist. However heroes perform badly with a certain setup or players perform badly
Where the fuck is tiny/Bs useless. BS is sometimes situational but you can buttrape certain heros that other heros do not get their hands on. Wich hero is able to solokill antimage? A balanar has to come in range to silence him. Rupture has 1000 range and goes through BKB. You can easy snipe chick with it and there is no hero ingame that deals better with blink/leap heros or weaver/clinkz/slark. BS is never ever useless and even makes his apperance in competitive dota. How often do you end up against a farmed anti mage against you, cause locking him down was not possible. A single BS will lock AM down. Same for weaver, clinkz or qop (qop is hard to deal with early game, but still possible). He also comes in with 7 sek singletarget silence and his nuke can be amplified by forcestaff alot (i do not recommend force staff on him after the nerf, but supports can force ruptured targets!).
Same for Tiny. My Tinybuilt is Bottle/Shadowblade. I also like manaboots or soulring. Aga and you can Buttfuck the hell out of the enemy team. With Shadowblade/Aga you can Burst almost every hero during midgame and most heros even lategame. You just need a shadowblade and become a hell of a threat. SB also scales great with the lack of attackspeed. Id always put shadowblade over blink. Since Tiny can flashfarm you can get your items with ease. Min 16 Shadowblade/Bottle/Manaboots is no problem. You just need some runecontrol early on. A haste rune or invi rune means a safe kill on the sidelanes for you. It took me some time to get decent on tiny. He starts with 0 armor and his armorgain is horrible. Early chainmail helps often, since the +5 armor is really important. I agree with you that sidelane tiny has some weaknesses. But try him out with a CM on lane. Its just easy rape. A mate and me played this some time ago and we reached nearly 80% winratio.
Just check merlinis tinyplay! http://dotabuff.com/players/67760037
Earthshaker has amazing teamfightpresence. Basically the enemy team has no chance to push midgame, after es has his blink. Also ES is one of the best lvl 1 roam heros, since you can block the entire enemy fleeingroute with fissure.
I agree with pudge and sniper. Pudge is situational and a snowballing pudge can be devastating. But proper warding just counters him too hard. Sniper is just garbage in every aspect. Slow, poor flashfarmin, low stats and statgain, no escape. Sniper is just easy food. He needs too much farm and offers not enough to pay it back. A lancer/lifestealer with the same farm just rapes him.
OP, just cus I'm in normal doesn't mean I'm wrong. You're dumb if you think earthshaker is a bad hero.
Omni I can see, he's a bit defensive, but I still like him in the right situations. Like vs melee heavy teams he's very effective.
Intersting thoughts on medusa and PL because many I play with consider them the strongest hard carrys. I agree they need tons of farm, I guess you just assume in lower skilled games your carry is going to be able to get that farm. I don't know if I'd label medusa completely worthless early though, her ult can turn a team fight, either paralyzing other team or making them back off letting you escape if you're losing.
If I had to pick a garbage hero it would definitely be brood. I just hate how her spiderlings block your own team and she's hard to play. Lowest win ratio in dota seems to agree with me.
I agree sniper can't keep up with other carrys late, and he's easily shut down by any stuns (spirit breaker in particular destroys him) but he still has really high dmg pretty early on, with that mini stun. He's a good mid game player as long as you are smart and not out of position. He's easily counter picked though by those disablers.
Pudge is not garbage, just not as good as all the pubs think. What about Riki? He's generally garbage but I think it's more due to bad players than the hero itself.
@Mark
A hero that it is hard to play doesnt mean it is garbage. What you basically say is a hero that someone cannot play is a bad hero.
No, but even brood played correctly isn't particularly strong. I think being hard or easy to play does factor into the overall view of the hero. For example no one calls invoker op even though you can chain cast spells on him because it's very difficult to master. The potential of the hero is balanced by the difficultly in unlocking that potential. For brood it's hard to unlock her potential and there's not enough there to make it worthwhile anyway.
Now Riki I'm not sure. I'm not sure if he is a garbage hero or the players who usually pick him are garbage.
elder titan is just a walking debuff aura..I think his first skill area radius need to be bigger and his second skill need to have longer range.
Sand king, ES, kunkka are pretty much 5x better than titan for AOE dmg.
![[Lk].Zano](https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/b9/b98e01ce6ef4a5e926a44cdd1564d0e8e5fbfa36_full.jpg "[Lk].Zano")
To be honest, if your team is using Elder Titan as the main initiator, you are doing it wrong.
iWin4Arka, I'm not sure what you're driving at. Do you really think brood is as good as some of the other best heroes? Or just not complete garbage? In your post you say (I'm summarizing) they're aren't bad heroes, just bad picks and bad players. Well brood is often a bad pick and/or performs poorly. Thus brood is possibly hard to play, since everyone plays her badly, and/or is an extremely situational pick, or is just a bad hero. In either case I don't like when people pick her because we usually lose.
And I agree with last post, sniper is a very string mid early. He just requires heads up positioning because he's susceptible to ganks.
Mark, the main reason that brood is so seemingly bad right now is because she's made to fill a role that currently doesn't fit into the meta-games main strategies. The problem is that most other heros with as much lane control and pushing power as her are either flash farm carries, have good harass, or have cost efficient AoE. In those cases there's a very specific time or situation where they should be in or out of a lane and other roles that they foucs on. Brood is different because she is entirely reliant on her ability to control a lane, deprive enemy heros of farm, and apply constant pressure to towers. When played correctly (by making it hard for enemy carries to farm and keeping lanes pushed) she can actually have great team fight capabilities because of her ablitiy to deprive the other team of map control and force fights where it's most advantageous to your team. Also if you can farm well your lifesteal and slow can be amazing late game vs certain line ups.
It seems you didn't quite understand what I was trying to say. I didn't mean those are garbage heroes, they defenetly can be used in some line ups and can be used right by certain skilled players,I just mean picking them means by default your chance of winning is lower. I didn't mean tiny is a bad hero, hes a great hero , winning 1 team fight would probably mean 3 raxes with the way he pushes , but I think there are other carrys who are just better heroes in general and farm easier , have more lane presence , team fight presence, better split push etc with fewer items. While bs being a good mid hero there are a lot who are better at lane dominance and even ganking , while still being a lot better at team fights aswell.. I think you just dont want to admit whats the sad true that dota isnt completely balanced at the moment.. If you still say that every hero has the same potential and is the same quality of every other, try explaining why the SAME 20-30 HEROES are picked OVER and OVER for the last 2 years in more EVERY SINGLE GAME in the competitive scene? Ask any pro player, I've actualy had chance to talk to some really good players, they will tell you the few best carry heroes, few best supports,mids, etc etc who work best in every line up , are most stable and work with and against every strategy so well.. And about pudge i just said hes picked way too often by people who know way too little and they ruin games.
Ofc there is a current meta. Some heros are in, other are out. Until the next big buff/nerf.
But there are shitload of heros that are still very nice in pubgames (Ursa/BS/Tiny), that are not good enough for beeing regular picks in the pro scene but good enough for pubgames. Also they are situational in the pro scene, like BS Tiny. Tiny as carry was very common some month ago and he is a decent carry.
In my eyes he is even a decent counter to PL, since his passive works on illus and he can clear lancer illus with 2 hits.
There is a big grey area between black and white, crap and current meta.
I think bs is not even good enough for pub games if its tryhard.. but about tiny yeah youre right a nice counter to pl
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If someone would have lets say a low kda on a specific trashcan hero, and plays in fairly high skill games .. and the one would want to increase the heroes kda , how would one do it without actually feeding some more ? Personally i dont know why anyone would pick bloodseeker, omni.. sniper.. tiny, earthshaker.. even pudge.. I guess some could be called situational and can be used in specific line ups.. ex. tiny in a cw with wisp or something but in pubs people just ruin the game when they pick him and ask for the safe lane.. bs just shit.. omni maybe used with pa but other then that, cant zone out an enemy cant rotate , just shitty hero, es same story except hes cool.. and pudge the most picked hero on dota 2 even in diamond bracket .. biggest game ruiner when someone who feels like playing him goes mid and even if he dominates early the game is still lost because his teamfight presence is very low and his very easily killed and that often means extra killing streak gold for the carry and so much exp.. Fountain hooks were something even in high skilled games but now that thats removed i feel like this hero is just overpicked and ruins pubs for players that actualy care, and its very rare that an actual skilled person picks him.. Does anyone share my toughts ? Also i had same opinion on brood but i was proved wrong and its actualy very usable in pubs with specific tactics so.. prove me wrong.. lately you just cant casualy random and win a game..some heroes are just not as good as others
tl;dr picking op tryhard heros in pubs = win not picking them = lose