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60 comments
Fibsh

    I love how this article ignores Spectre. Apparently it is so OP now that we don't even talk about it

    Chronos

      Buyback must change in any way... is annoying to kill someone and losing your advantance instantly.... this sucks....

      JayJayOkocha

        hi broodmother...

        csh

          T1- buybacks, pl, brood, clinkz, spectre, zeus and willow (strong)
          T2- venge, weaver, phoenix and nullifier pls (tweaks)

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          Capri

            Nerf brood, spectre, and weaver please.

            Kaminari

              @Fibsh Dont you dare talk about my girl - Spec leave her alone. We dont need your nerf

              Xaelath

                Article forgot to mention Spectre since this hero have like 60% winrate on Pub. We doesn't even need to talk about it in International because when she appeared or picked Dota Plus likely to make a ridiculous prediction to the spectre team.

                There's also Vengeful spirit, her 3rd skill have been a controversy for a while though she probably only get a small nerf.

                Dark Willow also deserve a mention here, a 3 star nuker, with a Disable kit that's pretty useful in early and Late game. She's a common pick in international while holding the Position 4.

                POGGERS

                  pls Icefrog stop nerfing and buffing heroes according to the professional scene meta and start working on Dotabuff winrates....Buff all the 40% winrate heroes and nerf all the 52% + winrate heroes....

                  去邪惡的天才

                    Eh, I disagree with the drow strat nerfing. Shes finally useful and has a niche if your team takes her aura into account and itemizes accordingly.

                    Alluvion Oración

                      Nah this article is very misleading.
                      We all know that Earth Spirit will be nerfed and Crystal Maiden have her movement speed reduced

                      ETdAWESOME

                        ^CM’s 275 MS still too fast I think

                        AQILLA

                          RIKI needs to get buffed, and his ulti needs to get back to where it was, hitting all heros at the same time

                          FE

                            Buff techies

                            Espada

                              Buff heroes because pub = very unbalanced pro scene
                              Buff heroes because pro scene = Pub dominator list
                              If you buff high complexity hero, professional would exploit it like hell (like chen, low pub WR)
                              If you buff simple hero, pub will exploit it like hell (Pudge, Spectre)
                              In pro scene, difficulty lies in these simple hero to reach late game, while in pub scene, difficulty lies in that hero itself lol

                              k4os5

                                I feel this TI was varied enough, with heroes we never saw hitting the field and making a difference. We had wraith king, the return of tiny, timbersaw, treat protector... Stuff we never saw before. I think the game is in a very good space right now and only few tweaks are needed. Broodmother maybe created a bit too much space, specter is probably a bit too hard to kill and Zeus is a bit too much oppressive in pubs (the aghanim ability is really too powerful) but all around is a quite balanced game, skill and draft have the same importance and is possible to win games even with unorthodox drafts as long as you can outplay the opponents.

                                XIII

                                  spectre is SO good in this time . she is so simple to shut down early and a lane will loose it's tower definitely. She is good. heros like brood or clinkz done too much without any farm or smth and create too much space while you need so much to stop them early game. i think BROOD and CLINKZ need heavy nerfs.

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                                  Carolina

                                    I feel like these articles don't go in much depth because like other writers posted before, spectre and venge were massive heroes that were picked and I don't see anything mentioning them at all.

                                    Parteculos

                                      Enchantress is a little bit overpowered, yet NONE of her counters where picked against her. Naix eats (literaly) her in lane, junero kills her, timber recks her...
                                      Also they forget to mention BONE FUCKER.

                                      MM.Ugh Brock Hall

                                        I wouldn't say Drow was ignored, although the numbers would suggest it.

                                        Drow is a niche pick (sort of) and there is a lot of ways to make the hero inconsequential, especially later in the game. It's hard to want to pick the hero unless you are sure you will get the right group of heroes to support or benefit from her. This tournament saw a healthy amount of Mirana, Venge, Weaver, Clinkz, and Storm Spirit picks to receive damage from Drow, as they all benefit quite well from the dual lane setup. Other teams first picked it and laughed as the opposing team scrambled to ban or block pick as many of the good combos as they could while they casually picked ranged heroes like Necro and played a totally unorthodox Drow strat.

                                        These heroes were doing just fine in games without Drow, especially Mirana and Venge, so later in the tournament teams seemed to be content banning out or block picking those heroes to give Drow nothing to boost. By the second round of bans it didn't seem worth wasting a ban on the otherwise weak hero.

                                        To the Spectre comments, I'm guessing that Kawaii didn't include her on the list because Spec isn't a first pick hero, so she isn't always as powerful in pro matches as those specialized drafts suggest. That being said, I definitely still think she deserves the nerf bat.

                                        imperfek whomeyoumewho

                                          *0* .......

                                          Syst3m

                                            what about Ring of Aquilla?
                                            its just wrong to see every WK Lina and Invoker build this midgame Agility Item

                                            Potato PC

                                              Enchantress will suffer nerf the way IO is nerfed

                                              [420]Shtirlitz

                                                I'd say Venge second could lower armour for less time; her third's illusions could be made slower; even swap could be made more mana expensive.

                                                Venge is mediocre in movespeed & stun range - nerfing these would make her even worse roamer.

                                                She is already so-so core, therefore nerfing her stats/damage could make her unfun to play as pos3+ and break her draft flexibility.

                                                She is strong by design; I wish the lady would remain like that.

                                                Remember, the Rule One that sells you Dota is that every hero should feel strong; and getting 50% winrate without breaking Rule One is not our worry.

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                                                Awakened

                                                  Valve does not give a shit about pub meta.

                                                  TousPotes

                                                    Come on, spectre needs some hard nerfs now. 6th most picked hero in pubs and still gets 60% Winrate ??? I can't believe both valve and this article have been ignoring it for so long. He was also a first ban in TI8 finals, so pros also know he is OP.
                                                    Also @AQILLA, riki is the second highest winrate hero, and he is not fun to watch in pro scene so he definitely DOESN'T need buffs.

                                                    justlex

                                                      i genuinely think that spectre is not balanced

                                                      The king of noobs

                                                        This years meta was very unbalanced. Many heroes were not played.

                                                        MM.Ugh Brock Hall

                                                          @The king of noobs

                                                          More heroes were played at this TI than any before

                                                          cherry.ESVM

                                                            Spectre straight up needs a rework.

                                                            In its current state, dispersion is one of the most degenerate abilities in the game. Reducing and spreading 30 PERCENT of damage done to her as AOE PURE DAMAGE WITHOUT REDUCTIONS is actually the most retarded shit. Combine that with Blademail, Heart and the 500 hp talent and it's impossible to kill her without sacrificing 50% of your team's hp (and then she can just buyback haunt back in for a free ultra kill). "Buhhh just buy a bkb!" Really? On our ENTIRE team?

                                                            Real nice hero.

                                                            KingY

                                                              Spectre has been around forever kids. And the hero is way weaker than it used to be.
                                                              Badman single handedly got the hero nerfed -- Spectre doesn't need a nerf ; learn to finish the game faster against a spectre and how to punish the pick.

                                                              Oh & dispersion only deals maximum damage at 300 range, it's halved past 650 range.

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                                                              Just-Give-Only

                                                                Idk it seems like spectre currently is already contributing a significant amount in teamfights with just blademail + vanguard/hood, unlike previously before the more recent buffs (but after the urn/drums era) when she needs a radiance to actually have any impact.

                                                                SuperMassiveBlackHole

                                                                  Spectre had a 44% win ratio in the International.Not saying she is not op in pubs or anything but the hero is fine as it is.Aslo @queen of paint a silver edge easily breaks the disperision and disperision returns the damage as the same type not pure.

                                                                  KingY

                                                                    @justgive -- Fnatic.msi (N0tail etc) played a Sandwraith/Slither/Accursed (Spectre/Veno/Abaddon) trilane quite often & ran defensive items ; blademail/hood/vanguard counting on Abaddon shield just to run shit down.
                                                                    Badman was also an early game rapist. Most games ended by 25-30 as a spectre.

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                                                                    mllcg

                                                                      Spectre does not need a nerf lol.. The counters to spec need a buff (rip slark). Also, someone failed to mention cancer (Phantom) Lancer? That hero was also rekting everyone. Before slark was nerfed to the ground, he was a typical counter to spec. Now...

                                                                      Even lifestealer was an "OK" counter to spectre. But that hero is also a very bad hero now..

                                                                      If anything, Aquila needs a nerf more than any hero LOL

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                                                                      Abyss Watcher(MID)

                                                                        Ench willow brood, nerf those 3 extremely broken heroes then dota is good once again.

                                                                        MM.Ugh Brock Hall

                                                                          @KingY

                                                                          It's a common issue in pub matches for sure, games just naturally last longer with a lower level of communication and slower planning. The strength of late game heroes was seen at TI this year, but the fact that the heroes did what they were designed to do and won games during their timing window doesn't mean they are broken. Ultimately there has to be a hero that is theoretically stronger than any other hero given infinite time, just like there is in theory a hero that is strongest at the horn. That itself cannot be changed and isn't an argument supporting the nerfing of a hero.

                                                                          The debate on Spec should be more centered around whether the hero is both reliable and able to win games. Usually these heroes are given priority in the draft, followed by heroes that are reliable, and finally heroes that win games. Those groups end up being a good indicator of what is least counterable and what is most counterable. Brood is extremely counterable, but she makes up for it by being really strong when the conditions are correct. That makes her interesting. Vengeful Spirit, on the other hand, is a very safe pick because she almost always is strong. She wins games reliably, so it's a no brainer to pick her.

                                                                          Spec is reliable. She doesn't necessarily win or lose games, most of the time doing well enough no matter what the situation is. She isn't really like many other mid draft heroes in the fact that she definitely has a strong and weak stage of the game, where fellow mid draft heroes like Mirana and Gyro and Tusk etc are fairly even footed throughout the game. But in the context of what you're going to pick next, she is a good second phase pick as you have enough information at your hands to feel comfortable in picking her or going another direction.

                                                                          So yeah I agree, I guess is what I'm saying. Spec isn't necessarily the issue. It's just that pubs have a hard time picking up the pace and pros are skilled at slowing it down, given the correct draft.

                                                                          hz

                                                                            Don't you dare nerf my boi EarthShaker

                                                                            Peruano Kirchnerista

                                                                              Spectre

                                                                              Alluvion Oración

                                                                                Aquila is one the ingnored things to be nerfed. 19 + dmg for agi heroes (or just 10 but still much) is just very tempting for only 985 gold. You can either add recipe that cost 200 gold or nerf it all the way.
                                                                                And for those who keeps whining spec needs a nerf, maybe you should be the one who need to nerf spec. And by mean you i mean the player. Spec only counters are both shadow demon and doom with aghanim on both of those hereos (with viper to be considered). She is a few heroes that can be countered by how your playstyle goes. If you prefer to do teamwipe and then goes farming, that means you should be the one to be blamed. Spec can be beaten within <35min of the game (unless the spec has all the farm and the player is ana). So either you can just blame your support for not warding your jungle while they tried so hard to push the shit out of spec lane or just watch Dealing with Spectre from Relax You're Fine youtube channel

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                                                                                Ding

                                                                                  yes, spec only need to be locked down early, break his passive, and boom u killed him, figure out smthing in draft phase la

                                                                                  Отшельник

                                                                                    1) Nerf brood, spectr
                                                                                    2) up plz dark seer
                                                                                    3) plz take statistics about whos baned on 6 month becouse think that never happens

                                                                                    I Love You, Do u Love Me? ♥

                                                                                      Buff Techies, he has been only picked once. Dunno, why IceFrog is scared of this guy.

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                                                                                      par73

                                                                                        Great article! I was bed ridden for the entire Main stage, coming out of surgery around Noon and at home in time for the first game! I gotta say it’s a great point that drow suddenly became phased out for the ME, she simply disappeared. I felt like you should have brought up PL along with Spectre, they proved to beable to take over games when it came down to a hard carry. Regardless you brought up an even better point about bye back investment , without the current mechanic with the way it is, we don’t know if EG 2-0 the former champs, or if OG survive their three clutch comebacks which secured them the Aegis.

                                                                                        Ocean

                                                                                          giving buybacks 10 seconds is very good imo, i mean not being able to insta buyback can change many fights! u can be sure if u manage to somehow kill the spectre or storm they don't bb and press 1 button and win the fight at least for 10 sec!

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                                                                                          [420]Shtirlitz

                                                                                            Rule of fun: insta-buyback on laning stage is a great move to make fun of

                                                                                            Ukhtea~

                                                                                              Spec doesn't need nerf,, just buff heroes which can fight against her such as Slark or LS !

                                                                                              ShiSui UcHiHa

                                                                                                Clinkz?

                                                                                                MM.Ugh Brock Hall

                                                                                                  @ShiSui UcHiHa

                                                                                                  Clinkz was picked 51 times and had a 49% winrate.

                                                                                                  The big winners with a decent showing (above 20 games) were Drow (69%), Invoker (66%), Nyx (65%), Phoenix (Dotabuff was right on this one from earlier article, 60%), Undying, Dark Willow, Weaver, Earthshaker, Lina, Bane, Ench, all had above 55% winrate.

                                                                                                  You can find more info about the heroes at this website, which has a HUGE amount of information, some even detailing why Spec wasn't the monster the comments thread makes her out to be (although still formidable):

                                                                                                  https://spectralalliance.ru/reports/?league=ti8&mod=overview

                                                                                                  Just-Give-Only

                                                                                                    Anyone feels that storm can zip around a little too far and too much even without massive bloodstone charges? Many times I expected storm to be out of mana after zipping so far which was the case post ti5 nerfs only to find out that he barely burnt 1/3 of his mana pool. Kaya and the regen changes have made the hero into an absolute nightmare to play against mid to late game, despite what the winrate suggests. Even teams with lots of cc won't really deter him for long as he recovers fast after the laning stage.

                                                                                                    µ's SuBi ♪

                                                                                                      Don't mind me, I am here to declare my presence again.