It's like I'm talking to a 4 year old and that says more about tinker players than you could ever imagine. How someone can put necro in the same league with tinker is beyond me. You're from Eu btw right? Yeah, my 1k mmr friend went from dubai to europe and got 5k in less than a month. Shows how much mmr represents skill. Anyway, its clearly stated above that a farmed slark on my team and a farmed bs failed to kill a farmed tinker. I never said I picked am and failed to kill tinker. All that I said and you failed to understand is "tinker/invoker should not be able to kill a hard carry by themselves". I'm amazed that you couldn't see the 63% winrate tb on my profile. As a person who only sees what he wants to see, you are in no position to suggest that invoker/ tinker are not in need of a nerf/ rework. My logic is that if a hero is strong early and mid game, they should NOT be able to SOLO kill the hard carry late game, the 5 sec bkb allows them to run away then come back and kill the carry as the bkb timer runs out. You don't know the first thing being talked about on this thread. Yet here you are, starting your comments with ROFL, like you've got it all figured out. Man... I feel sorry for you. No, really I do.
I'll ask you again, before your next salty comment imitating the typical 2k-3k mmr player arrives as if it was something important. Should a hero, who kills carries early/mid game, be allowed to SOLO kill FARMED carries late game as well? If so, pray tell the PURPOSE of the carry.
Tinker is a carry so yes he should be allowed to solo kill farmed carries late game.
Regarding your premise, tinker shouldn't be killing carries solo early game. If you're talking about killing as a group, you can say that about almost any hero.
As for the purpose of right click carries, they can actually push towers and take rosh in addition to solo killing and teamfighting
Not to mention tinker just straight up dies to pretty much any gank before having over 5k gold (BoT, SR, blink) (and even after blink with the right heroes/vision)
"can kill almost any mid hero with his death combo at level 5" - ??? laser 240 + rocket 150 = 390
"I'm sure you read above that matrice agrees with my 'logic'" - he agreed that right click carries *can* suck at all stages of the game e.g. troll. and also that tinker doesn't fit into the category of being strong at all stages of the game
"Yeah, my 1k mmr friend went from dubai to europe and got 5k in less than a month" - soo, 5+ games a day at 100% winrate?
Invoker disarm purgeable Sounds nice. Tinker nerf: Laser magic dmg and mach physikal. Thx icefrog
If been serious. With this nerf tinker had Same dmg in early game but march would hurt agi carries much less in late cuz armor. Tinker is one of the only heros actually u have to go bkb against while He got zero dissables on abilitys just cuz his magic dmg Output is way to high whole game.
@ Destinii Gank tinker, he'll laser one and nuke down the other while the tower does the rest. What kinda passive tinkers have you been getting? No the purpose of right click carries is that they become ultimately strongest late game and heroes like tinker/ invoker need to fall off by then like good little children e.g skywrath, strong early/ mid game, falls off late game. These are NUKERS. Nukers kill you early game, then they kill you mid game, so if carries rosh and push towers, they will STILL die to these INT 'carries' and thereby nullifying their use as invoker can rosh faster than any carry except ursa and tinker can push/counter push faster than any carry, so if you already get your ass handed to you early/ mid game by these heroes, they should be weaker late game (if anyone is concerned with a balanced environment in the game). You missed the point completely and only pointed out the minor flaws in my comment. Hats off to ya.
http://www.dotabuff.com/players/302210821 This is my friend from dubai server who now lives in U.K. His mmr is 4.7k. Look at his most played heroes, holla if you see a tinker and voker in there. Yes, it is possible to achieve that mmr with such ease.
So you are complaining that a hero that actually takes a good APM and higher skill cap to play shouldn't be able to out play a hero that only mindlessly right clicks? and no OP the topic of the thread is not "INT heroes shit on HARD CARRIES even in LATE GAME" it is "Does tinker need a nerf" congratulations, you forgot your own topic, the think is tinker is not OP, he requires a skilled player to get to that god-like late game, and yes you need to be able to shut down "hard carrys" its called a counter? or would you prefer that no one can counter a 6 slotted slark?
If you feel that tinker is OP because he can counter your play style what about enigma? all you need is refresher and aghs and you can kill any hero no matter the items?
Dota is not a game about Ultra carry's right clicking creeps and winning, its about out playing your opponents and countering their picks.
Certain heros can destroy tinker late game just not right click carry's because he is designed to counter them. if you want to win vs a tinker shut him down early game and invest in lock down. not hard.
To be fair, having a tinker in the team has it's own disadvantages too. underfarmed carries due to pushed out lanes, takes a lot of time to farm that hex and eblade, and having a tinker caught out would almost always mean the other 4 would lose in a forced fight since they're probably starved gold and exp by tinker. The only time they actually get gold and exp while playing with pushed out lanes is when they are snowballing into kills, which should be well avoidable if you aren't feeding kills. You might argue an early laser-missile build still hurts, but this is still easily counterable by slowing down the pace. Tinker is bound to be left behind when he has little or no skill points invested in march at this point in time. You might also say perma hex/ghost is still OP. It's not like he's invincible to disables himself. If your team doesn't have disables, it should be clear that it's a drafting problem and not Tinker being too OP. The whole point is, Tinker is not an auto-win pick. He isn't OP. sorry for my bad england. Still nursing a hangover.
Having to invest time, effort and gold just to deny tinker's ability to hit that sweet spot isn't fun either. It's not like you can't unblock a blocked ancients.
^i didn't realize this was the AFK farming tinker. But basically you lane mid, then you start walking back to ancients at xx:40 or smth like that and stack. Clear the stacks with lvl 4 march, rearm and soulring. Ez gold from lane AND ancients.
If u spend all Your Ressources into Midlane like get tinker his Farm there are 2 things happening: your carry will suffer and, enemy mid has lots of space. So go let tinker get his ancients want him to C vs Sven who has Same Support and free Farm After 15 min when his march Deals physikal dmg.
i dont know which game you guys are playing but you cant really push vs a farmed tinker, so you cant beat him early, cant beat him mid, your poor pa, slark got his farm somehow in late game and tinker just casually hexes and nukes them down and you people say that this is balanced.Even if he cant kill a tank carry in late he can hex him long enough for his team to be able to take rax.
What im Trying to say is if tinker got bot Blink and maybe also dagon in 15 min and Sven has like bkb Blink treads in Same time, tinker would die in fucking 1 second. U could Do this with every carry who has armor and dmg without items.
Why are you even letting tinker get farm in the first place? And like I said, being able to permahex doesnt mean he's automatically immune to disables himself. BKB isn't supposed to be healthy for his lacking inventory slots either. What about slark? He's like one of the hardest to shut down carries of this meta it's almost impossible for him to be underfarmed, nor does he lack presence in most other stages of the game.
You got a point dude.,... If tinker gets BLINK and BOT before 15 mins, you have lost most of game already.
I kinda think the rearm cooldown should be made to at least 3 seconds.
Gank tinker, he'll laser one and nuke down the other while the tower does the rest.
- this made me laugh, sure you can if you get ganked with low hp heroes with no stuns/silences/slows
No the purpose of right click carries is that they become ultimately strongest late game and heroes like tinker/ invoker need to fall off by then like good little children e.g skywrath, strong early/ mid game, falls off late game.
- why ask us to tell you the purpose of a right click carry when you are just going to disregard it. since when is this purpose the rule anyway? can you not comprehend that a right click carry can be beaten by a nuker carry like tinker, except they make up in other aspects like tower pushing, better teamfight, stuns, escape mech?
These are NUKERS. Nukers kill you early game, then they kill you mid game, so if carries rosh and push towers, they will STILL die to these INT 'carries'
-except you completely ignored my argument that lvl 5 tinker can't solo kill. let's try mid game then. say level 9 tinker with 4-4-0-1. firstly, tinker shouldnt be getting into laser range before blink. even if he does, its 583 damage for laser rocket, and if you somehow haven't just run away/fogged/escape mechanism/stunned/tp support while tinker is rearming, 845 for laser rocket rocket, which is still barely a full hp hero assuming they didn't buy survivability. again, if you want to factor in allies in the kill, then most right click carries can do the same
and thereby nullifying their use as invoker can rosh faster than any carry except ursa
-to save time im not going to talk about invoker
and tinker can push/counter push faster than any carry
-i said push towers - nice strawman, and you accuse me of picking minor flaws rofl
so if you already get your ass handed to you early/ mid game by these heroes, they should be weaker late game (if anyone is concerned with a balanced environment in the game).
- except i pointed out tinker shouldn't be killing you in lane as you so kindly ignored, and still shouldn't be solo killing till at least BoT SR blink (5k+ gold) which can be further mitigated by escape mech/stun/silence/ally (pick any).
You missed the point completely and only pointed out the minor flaws in my comment. Hats off to ya.
- i miss the point because you disregard my argument and just state yourself again? correct me if i'm wrong but your argument is "int hero nukes and kills carries in early/mid game, therefore should not be able to kill carries in late game". to which (assuming your premise is correct) i answered yes, because tinker has the sole purpose of killing heroes and wave clear, while having mediocre teamfight, no escape mechanism, no disables, no tower damage, which many right click carries have. even more, your premise of killing carries early/mid game barely holds. as before, tinker shouldn't be solo killing to BoT SR blink, at which point it's well into midgame. killing with allies? yeah so can most right click carries.
i don't even think tinker is weak. OP just has the most delusional thinking and a disgusting attitude.
agi carries have slows, almost none of them have stuns, slows dont kill tinker. Also, its not really that easy to push high ground vs a tinker which as you stated is the purpose of agi carries, pushing towers and getting killed all game.
If tinker is actually SO OP as you say, he would have higher win+pick rates.
I suggest you to watch replay of OG vs team Liquid at Epicenter where Miracle- picked Tinker. Spoiler: Tinker eventually got wrecked.
Or recent Dannish Bears vs No Diggity, where Tinker got fucked really hard.
As far as I am concerned, Tinker isn't op. He needs so many expensive items and for this, he needs lots of farm thus leaves his teammates underfarmed.
Then tinker keeps lanes pushed - so his teammates are more vulnerable to ganks and Tinker himself is easy target, if caught offguard (which can happen if you have NS or BM who can provide the vision of him in woods and interrupt his BoT)
To add more, there is item called Lotus orb, that can prove useful for dealing with him.
And finally, ever heard about bans? You can opt for banning tinker in every single game even in all pick now.
i tried tinker in dota imba just now and it too fcking OP, i felt like nvr died cuz bloodstone and always ready to fight cuz travel and rearm. GG NERF PLZ
It's like I'm talking to a 4 year old and that says more about tinker players than you could ever imagine. How someone can put necro in the same league with tinker is beyond me. You're from Eu btw right? Yeah, my 1k mmr friend went from dubai to europe and got 5k in less than a month. Shows how much mmr represents skill. Anyway, its clearly stated above that a farmed slark on my team and a farmed bs failed to kill a farmed tinker. I never said I picked am and failed to kill tinker. All that I said and you failed to understand is "tinker/invoker should not be able to kill a hard carry by themselves". I'm amazed that you couldn't see the 63% winrate tb on my profile. As a person who only sees what he wants to see, you are in no position to suggest that invoker/ tinker are not in need of a nerf/ rework. My logic is that if a hero is strong early and mid game, they should NOT be able to SOLO kill the hard carry late game, the 5 sec bkb allows them to run away then come back and kill the carry as the bkb timer runs out. You don't know the first thing being talked about on this thread. Yet here you are, starting your comments with ROFL, like you've got it all figured out. Man... I feel sorry for you. No, really I do.
@Mashiro, read the first comment. What does it say? No, wait, let me help. It says, 'a BIT OP'. Not too op. You're welcome.
I'll ask you again, before your next salty comment imitating the typical 2k-3k mmr player arrives as if it was something important. Should a hero, who kills carries early/mid game, be allowed to SOLO kill FARMED carries late game as well? If so, pray tell the PURPOSE of the carry.
Tinker is a carry so yes he should be allowed to solo kill farmed carries late game.
Regarding your premise, tinker shouldn't be killing carries solo early game. If you're talking about killing as a group, you can say that about almost any hero.
As for the purpose of right click carries, they can actually push towers and take rosh in addition to solo killing and teamfighting
Not to mention tinker just straight up dies to pretty much any gank before having over 5k gold (BoT, SR, blink) (and even after blink with the right heroes/vision)
"can kill almost any mid hero with his death combo at level 5" - ??? laser 240 + rocket 150 = 390
"I'm sure you read above that matrice agrees with my 'logic'" - he agreed that right click carries *can* suck at all stages of the game e.g. troll. and also that tinker doesn't fit into the category of being strong at all stages of the game
"Yeah, my 1k mmr friend went from dubai to europe and got 5k in less than a month" - soo, 5+ games a day at 100% winrate?
Invoker disarm purgeable Sounds nice. Tinker nerf: Laser magic dmg and mach physikal. Thx icefrog
If been serious. With this nerf tinker had Same dmg in early game but march would hurt agi carries much less in late cuz armor. Tinker is one of the only heros actually u have to go bkb against while He got zero dissables on abilitys just cuz his magic dmg Output is way to high whole game.
OP so ignorant he won't even listen to anyone..
thats why i call OP think tinker is too op.
Tinker can't 1v5 and if I'm correct there are 5 players on each team.
tinker needs a lot more space and farm to be reliable. hex and e blade is fucking expensive u know?
If you make March physical, he'd be able to farm ancients again...
@ Destinii Gank tinker, he'll laser one and nuke down the other while the tower does the rest. What kinda passive tinkers have you been getting? No the purpose of right click carries is that they become ultimately strongest late game and heroes like tinker/ invoker need to fall off by then like good little children e.g skywrath, strong early/ mid game, falls off late game. These are NUKERS. Nukers kill you early game, then they kill you mid game, so if carries rosh and push towers, they will STILL die to these INT 'carries' and thereby nullifying their use as invoker can rosh faster than any carry except ursa and tinker can push/counter push faster than any carry, so if you already get your ass handed to you early/ mid game by these heroes, they should be weaker late game (if anyone is concerned with a balanced environment in the game). You missed the point completely and only pointed out the minor flaws in my comment. Hats off to ya.
http://www.dotabuff.com/players/302210821
This is my friend from dubai server who now lives in U.K. His mmr is 4.7k. Look at his most played heroes, holla if you see a tinker and voker in there. Yes, it is possible to achieve that mmr with such ease.
So you are complaining that a hero that actually takes a good APM and higher skill cap to play shouldn't be able to out play a hero that only mindlessly right clicks? and no OP the topic of the thread is not "INT heroes shit on HARD CARRIES even in LATE GAME" it is "Does tinker need a nerf" congratulations, you forgot your own topic, the think is tinker is not OP, he requires a skilled player to get to that god-like late game, and yes you need to be able to shut down "hard carrys" its called a counter? or would you prefer that no one can counter a 6 slotted slark?
If you feel that tinker is OP because he can counter your play style what about enigma? all you need is refresher and aghs and you can kill any hero no matter the items?
Dota is not a game about Ultra carry's right clicking creeps and winning, its about out playing your opponents and countering their picks.
Certain heros can destroy tinker late game just not right click carry's because he is designed to counter them. if you want to win vs a tinker shut him down early game and invest in lock down. not hard.
WHY should tinker not be able to Farm ancients? Many hero can Farm ancients very early and Quick
To be fair, having a tinker in the team has it's own disadvantages too. underfarmed carries due to pushed out lanes, takes a lot of time to farm that hex and eblade, and having a tinker caught out would almost always mean the other 4 would lose in a forced fight since they're probably starved gold and exp by tinker. The only time they actually get gold and exp while playing with pushed out lanes is when they are snowballing into kills, which should be well avoidable if you aren't feeding kills. You might argue an early laser-missile build still hurts, but this is still easily counterable by slowing down the pace. Tinker is bound to be left behind when he has little or no skill points invested in march at this point in time. You might also say perma hex/ghost is still OP. It's not like he's invincible to disables himself. If your team doesn't have disables, it should be clear that it's a drafting problem and not Tinker being too OP. The whole point is, Tinker is not an auto-win pick. He isn't OP. sorry for my bad england. Still nursing a hangover.
@hartzfear back when he could, he gets to BoT SR bottle and blink at 12 minutes no fail. now THAT was when tinker was OP.
Block ancients?
Having to invest time, effort and gold just to deny tinker's ability to hit that sweet spot isn't fun either. It's not like you can't unblock a blocked ancients.
^i didn't realize this was the AFK farming tinker. But basically you lane mid, then you start walking back to ancients at xx:40 or smth like that and stack. Clear the stacks with lvl 4 march, rearm and soulring. Ez gold from lane AND ancients.
If u spend all Your Ressources into Midlane like get tinker his Farm there are 2 things happening: your carry will suffer and, enemy mid has lots of space. So go let tinker get his ancients want him to C vs Sven who has Same Support and free Farm After 15 min when his march Deals physikal dmg.
This shit is working in NS but in NS u can win games with god damn io carry. So thats basicly it
My english is bad, but yours is even worse I can't understand what you are trying to say. Rephrase.
i dont know which game you guys are playing but you cant really push vs a farmed tinker, so you cant beat him early, cant beat him mid, your poor pa, slark got his farm somehow in late game and tinker just casually hexes and nukes them down and you people say that this is balanced.Even if he cant kill a tank carry in late he can hex him long enough for his team to be able to take rax.
Yes you can silence tinker, but he can buy eul's , linken's sphere if he needs it.
What im Trying to say is if tinker got bot Blink and maybe also dagon in 15 min and Sven has like bkb Blink treads in Same time, tinker would die in fucking 1 second. U could Do this with every carry who has armor and dmg without items.
how can you put enigma in the same league as tinker, the two have entirely different roles.Oh, normal skill.
Why are you even letting tinker get farm in the first place? And like I said, being able to permahex doesnt mean he's automatically immune to disables himself. BKB isn't supposed to be healthy for his lacking inventory slots either. What about slark? He's like one of the hardest to shut down carries of this meta it's almost impossible for him to be underfarmed, nor does he lack presence in most other stages of the game.
@ op leave this Forum u cancer NOOB. 1400 tb cancer Rat shit game and Still hs u must be mentaly challenged
sorry people dont play ranked in dubai server
anyways go back to eu and enjoy your shit no skill games
You got a point dude.,... If tinker gets BLINK and BOT before 15 mins, you have lost most of game already.
I kinda think the rearm cooldown should be made to at least 3 seconds.
Pick huskar and go high ground like a boss. Fuck those March spam I know u feel
^filthy huskar spammer Kappa
reported
Faka u tinker player. Nice dagon 4head . *Throwing spears at u rax
isloated lamentation got some ISSUEs ROfL. 6k games still 3k lul xD
@Fee Too Pee
its to OP not u. 4head4head4head
@mashiro that was for romo arigato lawl
storm is shit
Gank tinker, he'll laser one and nuke down the other while the tower does the rest.
- this made me laugh, sure you can if you get ganked with low hp heroes with no stuns/silences/slows
No the purpose of right click carries is that they become ultimately strongest late game and heroes like tinker/ invoker need to fall off by then like good little children e.g skywrath, strong early/ mid game, falls off late game.
- why ask us to tell you the purpose of a right click carry when you are just going to disregard it. since when is this purpose the rule anyway? can you not comprehend that a right click carry can be beaten by a nuker carry like tinker, except they make up in other aspects like tower pushing, better teamfight, stuns, escape mech?
These are NUKERS. Nukers kill you early game, then they kill you mid game, so if carries rosh and push towers, they will STILL die to these INT 'carries'
-except you completely ignored my argument that lvl 5 tinker can't solo kill. let's try mid game then. say level 9 tinker with 4-4-0-1. firstly, tinker shouldnt be getting into laser range before blink. even if he does, its 583 damage for laser rocket, and if you somehow haven't just run away/fogged/escape mechanism/stunned/tp support while tinker is rearming, 845 for laser rocket rocket, which is still barely a full hp hero assuming they didn't buy survivability. again, if you want to factor in allies in the kill, then most right click carries can do the same
and thereby nullifying their use as invoker can rosh faster than any carry except ursa
-to save time im not going to talk about invoker
and tinker can push/counter push faster than any carry
-i said push towers - nice strawman, and you accuse me of picking minor flaws rofl
so if you already get your ass handed to you early/ mid game by these heroes, they should be weaker late game (if anyone is concerned with a balanced environment in the game).
- except i pointed out tinker shouldn't be killing you in lane as you so kindly ignored, and still shouldn't be solo killing till at least BoT SR blink (5k+ gold) which can be further mitigated by escape mech/stun/silence/ally (pick any).
You missed the point completely and only pointed out the minor flaws in my comment. Hats off to ya.
- i miss the point because you disregard my argument and just state yourself again? correct me if i'm wrong but your argument is "int hero nukes and kills carries in early/mid game, therefore should not be able to kill carries in late game". to which (assuming your premise is correct) i answered yes, because tinker has the sole purpose of killing heroes and wave clear, while having mediocre teamfight, no escape mechanism, no disables, no tower damage, which many right click carries have. even more, your premise of killing carries early/mid game barely holds. as before, tinker shouldn't be solo killing to BoT SR blink, at which point it's well into midgame. killing with allies? yeah so can most right click carries.
i don't even think tinker is weak. OP just has the most delusional thinking and a disgusting attitude.
agi carries have slows, almost none of them have stuns, slows dont kill tinker. Also, its not really that easy to push high ground vs a tinker which as you stated is the purpose of agi carries, pushing towers and getting killed all game.
If tinker is actually SO OP as you say, he would have higher win+pick rates.
I suggest you to watch replay of OG vs team Liquid at Epicenter where Miracle- picked Tinker. Spoiler: Tinker eventually got wrecked.
Or recent Dannish Bears vs No Diggity, where Tinker got fucked really hard.
As far as I am concerned, Tinker isn't op. He needs so many expensive items and for this, he needs lots of farm thus leaves his teammates underfarmed.
Then tinker keeps lanes pushed - so his teammates are more vulnerable to ganks and Tinker himself is easy target, if caught offguard (which can happen if you have NS or BM who can provide the vision of him in woods and interrupt his BoT)
To add more, there is item called Lotus orb, that can prove useful for dealing with him.
And finally, ever heard about bans? You can opt for banning tinker in every single game even in all pick now.
PS: Not even a single game as Invo/Tinker.
i tried tinker in dota imba just now and it too fcking OP, i felt like nvr died cuz bloodstone and always ready to fight cuz travel and rearm. GG NERF PLZ
definetely needs nerf and will be nerfed
nerf dota imba pls all heroes too imba gg
this thread is full reddit
Tinker def not op just annoying lol .