Everything's pretty same, but afcourse the higher the mmr is the more is the more difference in the skill level, but it should not be by much.
The main thing is 5k and above ppl understand match-ups and overall drafts pretty well, so even if the lose their lane they plan 2-3 strategies how to get back and is quite easy for them if they spot someone on enemy doing some stupid mistakes.
Under 5k players dont plan on recovery from lane/bad start whatever well at all and usually tilt/give up subconciously. Under 5k ppl dont check enemies item that often, but the higher the mmr players check and ping enemies items the moment they show on map, its more of a reflex game and the players play their best to make enemy make a mistake (eg: to use a long cd ulti/get caught out of position for half a second.)
Ashes, that's actually nicely explained from you and I would agree with everything you stated.
I agree with the ashes guy and the reason that I tilt and dont always do what has to be done to recover a bad lane phase despite knowing what i should do is the reason ill never be more than 3-4k
Honestly the difference between 4.1k (legend 7) and ancient 7 (4.9k) shoudln't be that big. As someone who played both in high 3k MMR, low 4000 and 4500-4700 range pretty much for my last 2 years, biggest difference i've seen is basically 3.7k to 4.3k.
People basically start to play at a faster pace in 4k+ and generally you will meet players capable of playing way better compared to 3k people.
However, the diference isn't mainly in decison making and general understanding of the game, it's more of a mechanical skill that differs.
While 3.7k can execute a strategy decently, usually they are at least 100gpm behind a 4k player and they just mainly get crushed in the lane.
Most of the low MMR games are decided in the laning phase most of the time, esepcially 3k mmr.
"The main thing is 5k and above ppl understand match-ups and overall drafts pretty well, so even if the lose their lane they plan 2-3 strategies how to get back and is quite easy for them if they spot someone on enemy doing some stupid mistakes."
wtf,people did this?
i 've playes in pretty much every bracket that 90% of the playerbase falls into.
there are quite clearly defined characteristics in each bracket. and different metas, depending on how different ppl in each bracket approach the game.
but i mean the differences are gradual over each mmr point of course. and they manifest in subtle differnces. you just need to have good observational skills.
at some point it's not like one bracket suddenly understands how to play dota (when ppl say "5k is where real dota starts"). things like matchups are gradual. even 7k could argue 5ks don't know anything about matchups. clearly defined differences though, do exist. it's like 1ks don't understand certain concepts like split pushing yet. then at certain lvl ppl start to understand and it becomes a gradient where the better you are, the more you understand matchups and heroes, the more you are able to get the most out of it.
even looking at 4k player play and 4.8k player play there are huge differences. at least in result. what they do differently is subtle, but that's dota. dota is the sum of your individual small actions that overall determines big outcomes like winning or losing.
From 3k to 4.5k, it's a big tutorial to learn the big picture: lanes, push the waves, objectives and map awareness.
That's the biggest chunk of knowledge players can learn and improve immensely.
The little things like understanding matchup, spikes & meta, laning tricks, positioning, lasthitting, PMA, itemization etc. are different for everyone.
^nomination for dotabuff awards and later global fame, wealth and fulfilling purpose in life.
on my 5k smurf 99% of the games make me tilt because of shitty mates that just dont understand how to play dota and its so unfun i stopped playing. i would blame dota not having a tutorial and the majority of content creators arent that good and dont even play cm so they usually promote some selfish gameplay which can only bring you so far in terms of mmr. the current state of dota is actually really simple to play and requires teamwork similar to overwatch. in general for team games the higher you go teamplay knowledge+communication>mad skills because there is somewhat of a skill ceiling.
imo the unspoken dota tutorial ends at immortal 3 digit where these people sorta figured out the hidden rules of dota and sorta how to play as a team. You would need some scrim experience to see how team dota works and a good amount of self learning to learn objective timings and study how the strong heroes work and of course how to pick your own hero. the allowance of errors decreases the higher mmr you go and increases from your superior knowledge/picks.
7k+ is where i would say they are great players and the top players with scrim experience are gods with their game knowledge. a good example would be daxak where i watched him for like a minute and he did some small camp aggro on the enemy side to scout whether the enemy had vision there. normal shitstains watching would not notice these small things because they are ignorant they probably dont even see the laning tricks and just see regular last hitting.
when you figured out how to play team dota with minimal gameplay mistakes i would say you finished the tutorial. which is unfortunately only like 4000 active current players in the world and the rest of are just casuals or ignorant imo. Team games sucks anyways, might as well play something else rather than rely on people not being trash and knowing unwritten rules.
i would say that a majority of 5k players dont even know the catapult spawns every 5 minutes.
Oh wow catapult spawns every 5min? I did not know that, i thought it spawns every 300 sec
1.5k to 2.5k is the biggest. It is easier for me to play good and win when playing with my 3k - 5k friends than it is to play solo in 1.5k. In 1.5k people buy Void Stone as first item on Phantom Assassin (not kidding: 4695404599, he had the Void Stone before Phase boots). You can play your pos4 hero as good as humanly possible if your carry is this mentaly challenged you can't win that game. Also 1.5k games is filled with 3-4k smurfs who suck at their bracket and have a miserable life so they come down to spank n00b ass.
I started noticing a big difference in pace once i hit 4k. Below that was pretty meh and annoying to rank up.
I have been climbing from 1.9k to 3.5 and it all feels just the same. I see the same mistakes and missplays
The only big difference is that in 1.9k there is no support and now there is at least 1 support
Well, I would say 5k - 6k player got the smallest differences in skill gap but those 'Small Gap' got a really huge impact to the game.
I was a 5k player, 6.4k player (highest i reached, but right now I rarely play on my main as i have to focus on my career, thats why i dropped to 6k, cant really compete with them if you dont play it everyday).
What I would say is, 6k has better understanding in Dota (when to gank as a MID LANNER, yes, literally, sometimes you have to gank as a mid lanner in early game, but for most of the 5ks. they dont think its a good thing to gank other lane or farm in the jungle, even when the lose their mid so hard).
Some minor thing can affect the game play as well (what i meant is skill gap, lanning stage, I was a mid lanner last time, then turn in to a carry, so most of my knowledge comes from those roles) For most of the 6k player who main at mid , they can easily outplayed most of the 5ks with specific heroes (right here, I wont say that I can outplayed you as a CM vs a Fking Viper (that only apply to 3k-4k or lower)). For example, If you choose Viper, Kunkka, SF, etc etc, I can easily outplayed you by using Tiny (even if he got some disadvantage from your hero, I would say a 80% win rate or even higher).
I am pretty sure that, right now, I will lose most of my lane against 6k players as you can see from my recent games, which I lost a lot as i dont play it that often like last time.
You are definitely correct on ""it's just insanely hard to keep up even with simple things, let alone actually execute a good teamfight with/against them."" as I can barely keep up my speed as a sup in that bracket, which cause my winrate as a sup close to 50% as I literally almost never rank up as a sup (or maybe when i was low 4k, but the skill gap is huge between a low 4k sup and low to mid 6k sup).
Its really hard to tell you what is the difference as I, myself is only a low to mid 6k (was 6.4, now 6k only), Maybe someone is correct, grind as much as you can but for me, I dont think so, I learnt a lot from smurfing, tbh, some low 1k or 2k have better knowledge in dota than I am on specific things, They read every update like a master with a degree or some shit while i dont, which will makes me lose something on certain time.
And I am not showing off that I am a talented people or what, but I have seen many low rank people has much more matches than I am, which means they got more experiences than I am on managing certain situation.
So Good Luck with that, I am not sure about 8k or 9k. But 6k and 7k is literally achievable even if you are not so talented (I believe I can, you can check my previous games, end almost every game within 20-30mins with stomping scores, which i cant do it right now).
(Tiny, Mk, Lone Druid, etc etc)
Oh Btw,
The higher it is, the smaller the difference it is, but the impact is way higher than it was.
can confirm when i was archon i used to read patch notes like my life depends on it
I'd write what every change means and predict the next meta and test every single change
now i just scroll to sk-visage-phoenix-lion
everything else doesn't matter lol
3-4K below 3k is just 10 people randomly hitting things.
3-4K is where the main strategic themes start to appear albeit in a rudimentary way.
Im high 3k now, was 4k before. Played on friend account who is 5k. Also smurfed my other friend account from 600 mmr to 3500 and my god i saw everything.
<1000 people doesn't know how to play the game, also running in towers, itemization 100% the same, no clutch picks or items. Smoke and Roshan doesn't exist.
1000-2000 a lot higher skill than previous, but lacks map vision and awareness. There is literally 1 million 3K and 4K smurfers down there. Smoke doesn't exist, Rosh in every 10th game.
2000-3000 also a lot higher skill than 1K, but it seems they play dota for fun. On this skill bracket i saw so many alcoholics and weed smokers than i saw them irl. People who play carry in this skill bracket shouldn't play it, they are light years behind 3k in skill and farming skill. They don't know which hero they should focus first. Teamfight is weak. Smoke doesn't exist.
3000 - 4000 my fucking mmr now, when 4K plays in it, he will have problems with noobs but would make it. But pretty hard. Smoke doesn't exist. And people sell 3k accounts so this is the most versatile mmr.
4000 low - same shit as 3k, just with more people with good individual skill. Smoke exists, but rarely.
4000 higher smoke exist. The most beautiful mmr. Actually a lot of people with high individual skill. Support know how to support.
5k + played on this shit and god, i won 1 game out of 4, its pretty hard for me to catch them, i can only support on this mmr.
Answer on your question - the biggest diference is definitely 2k from 3k, from 3k above you are not looking for fun.
i gonna be honest my smurf is at 4k7 atm and i rarely see "high individual skill" lmao
proly you gonna see those on 8ks or someting
^because you are too good sir, you keep raping me who is an ex-5.8k player thats why they are no challenge to you.
In my humble opinion its from 3k to 4k .
No trolling .
I went from 2k to 3k in like a week (while i didnt play rank for 2 years , and when i did insta 3k). I went from 4k to 5k in a month . Took me a year and half to relearn everyfucking basic thing to get to 4k from 3.5k .
Feachiru anyone in 4k has high individual skill for certain of their niche heroes at least. Of course it is pointless to compare to 7ks. It’s more accurate to say they are talented/exceptional (7ks), rather than saying they are good and everyone else trash. 4ks Still somewhat lacking in team play. Someone mentioned the use of smokes. Pretty accurate I would say. The use of smokes is good indicator that ppl are thinking about teamplay.
@Kool kalm keel , i uninstalled dota on my pc month ago la , xD havent been playing ranked , only normal with my real life buddies on a gaming zone where i am free kappa. Exams .
@turtle
on my 5k smurf 99% of the games make me tilt because of shitty mates that just dont understand how to play dota and its so unfun i stopped playing. i would blame dota not having a tutorial and the majority of content creators arent that good and dont even play cm so they usually promote some selfish gameplay which can only bring you so far in terms of mmr. the current state of dota is actually really simple to play and requires teamwork similar to overwatch. in general for team games the higher you go teamplay knowledge+communication>mad skills because there is somewhat of a skill ceiling.
imo the unspoken dota tutorial ends at immortal 3 digit where these people sorta figured out the hidden rules of dota and sorta how to play as a team. You would need some scrim experience to see how team dota works and a good amount of self learning to learn objective timings and study how the strong heroes work and of course how to pick your own hero. the allowance of errors decreases the higher mmr you go and increases from your superior knowledge/picks.
The game feels so different when in an actual “team”, or pre-made full party. Where everyone is mic’d up on Discord, or even playing beside each other in some compshop. I guess you’re right in the sense that the higher MMRs know to do team-oriented shit, but pre-mades feels entirely different. I’m not saying a 3K full team could beat a squad of 5K solo players, because of inferiorities in mechanics, game knowledge, gamesense, or w/e, but they would certainly give a better match to those five random 5K players than a group of five random 3K players would.
No, this does not justify parma’s MMR. Lol.
Oh yeah, the topic... IMO it was between 1-2K. I looked at a replay of when I was 1.6K and one when I was 2.6K, and I couldn’t believe it. Then again, that’s the power of hindsight. Also, for high MMR players, they probably don’t see the difference between all those far below them. A 7K would probably see 1K and 3K players as the same as he boosts an account along.
@etd 7k is god-tier level in dota already.. not even 6ks come close to their level. mechanically outstanding, good at every aspect.
Not much of a difference between a 6.0-6.1k player and 5.7-5.99k player
![[Steel Wolves] Antares™](https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/02/02f27d049e839f6323c1e0aab3d2165c594bd84d_full.jpg "[Steel Wolves] Antares™")
7k above? Thats pro level bruh. Biggest gap for me is 2k to 3k. They are ignorant on tome, scan, smoke, glyph, roshan timings, creep equilibrium and DRAFT.
1-2k MMR - no map awareness at all. When enemy have 3 heroes mid ganking you, and enemy mid is snowballing they will put all the blame on you. People know how to counter pick, but they're clueless about how to play mid matchups. Creep aggro usage is rare. Bad at farming.
2-3k MMR - slightly better. People start using creep aggro. Drafting around mid-late game, not laning phase.
3-4k MMR - Nearly everyone uses creep aggro. People has some idea about matchups, and start drafting more around laning than late game fights.
4-5k MMR - more focus on winning lanes. People understand matchups. People can farm efficiently.
6-7k - it's where people are actually good at the game, and significantly better than the rest. As a 4-4.5k player I can go even/slightly lose vs 5k, but vs 6-7k player I would just get totally destroyed.
7k+ - I don't understand the difference. I guess it all comes to small details. However there is a clear skill gap between let's say rank 1500, and rank 150. Probably bigger than between 1k MMR & 3k MMR.
I think difference between mid 1k, and 3k is not that big. Games become significantly different around 4k MMR.
This would simplify the discussion:
Is it more believable for 5 2K players be able to beat 5 3K players than it is for 5 6K players to beat 5 7K players, assuming they are all randoms to one another?
Also, regarding my hypothetical scenario, who would win: a team of 5 3K players who train and play together, or 5 random 5K players? Because I think the teamwork would be on the side of the 3K team, but they’d lose on mechanical skill and gamesense.
^no chance 5k lose vs 3ks.
2k & 3k is very close in skill.
5k & 6k is not close.
The higher mmr u go the bigger is difference between brackets.
Also I think the amount of smurfs is so big right now that 1.5k games are not much different than low 3k games.
Really? With the requirement of phone numbers for ranked I thought the smurfs have gone down, and that MMR has relatively stabilized. Then again, they may not be smurfs, but players who just calibrated low during MMR resets.
Is it really that many smurfs in the 1k bracket?
In 3k i think i come across maybe 2 players what i believe is smurfs this season.
This is one of them.
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/970807275
Smurfs below 3.5k are extremely rare but they exist
The highest concentration of smurfs are between 3.5k to 4k, then a little lower until 4.5k and even lower until 5k and then it drastically drops.
On average 1k players will have the same winrate against 2k players as 2k players vs 3k players and all the way up to infinity just based on how mmr works.
But it might be easier to overcome the skillgap in lower ranges of mmr compared to higher ranges of mmr because simply starting to do a couple things that you haven't been doing might be what you need to be 1k above your current bracket.
low 5ks are 4.5~ with a bit more of experience, but they commit mostly the same mistakes, I note the difference in 5.4k. About 6ks is like "OOP" said, I have a few friends in mid 6k and they have just a few little difference, but those things make the whole game different. I really don't understand what the hell it is, but they do little things to make them carry my games xD.
@john
apes are apes does it matter which one is prettier or which one is taller?
dont fool ur self
dota starts from 5k
below that every body is an ape
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What do you think about it? I'd consider the biggest difference to be 5k to 6k.
The least difference is probably 2k to 3k, since people there play pretty much the same, especially in low 3k range.
Also, to clarify, the reason why I think 5k to 6k is the biggest gap is because I literally have no clue how 6k players think and it seems like that their game knowledge and understanding of the game is just on another level.
It's impossible to actually compete with them if you are not one of them.
While 5ks are respectable and good players, I still manage to hold my own on good days and under favorable matchups, sometimes even win my lanes.
On rare occasions, when I get a chance to play with and against 6k players, it's just insanely hard to keep up even with simple things, let alone actually execute a good teamfight with/against them.