Dp falls off pretty quickly after 30 in the game. Even Abaddon support can counter her ult (with vlad and AC 30 min). +10 amor aura renders her ult roughly 50% less effective.
I am aware, its those 30 minutes that I am concerned about.
My average time with DP in a game is prob around 30 minutes.
Late game, I find it useful to get refreshor - so as to NOT allow enemy to avoid fights as much.
In general, I know how to deal with her.
I am just wondering how to 1v1 her mid early game - supports don't gank mid in my MMR, haha.
While AC is and item to counter DP, it's also the ultimate item for DP after octarine. AC makes her more tanky and amplify ult dmg. AC is quite an underrated item.
i was always sure that it works like kka splash dmg, and only takes into account the type of armor, and not the number
At normal skill. Play Bloodseeker vs DP mid. Rush bmail, then get tanky.
BS can out last hit DP easily in the lane, and has no problem healing back the harrasment from Crypt Swarm. If you play correctly you can get to level 6 first and kill her. If you have not finished bmail you can't challenge the ghosts, but you should lose only one Tier 1 tower at most before you can kill her.
Even if you are just trying to escape a bad fight, rupture is exellent at saving your team from DP. It's lasts long enough for everyone to get away.
In general DP is best countered by burst damage. DP wins long fights, you have to kill her quickly.
So think Dagon- Scythe Necrophos if you want a healer. Think Lion and Lina. Legion Commander can be very good if you build tanky and bmail those ghosts during Duel.
Ursa can be good as well, but lacks disable. DP will almost always get items enabling kiting like ghost/fstaff/glimmer/euls etc so you have to have a way to disable.
what about zeus?
If sf hits his razes he can go toe to toe with her in lane cus his right click to strong and that raze dmg, she can't outtank it with siphon or whatever. I know most people think sf is shitty right now but burst dmg early seems to hurt dp a lot.
Or get your team to gank the shit out of her. She is a super squishy hero completely reliant on that hp steal to survive.
sf loses to krob since krob can secure a lead in first 3 levels and outsustain him. also krob will never go in range for the w raze (excluding invis and haste runes but thats a lot of ifs)
Zues lacks disable. You have to able to inflict something like 1k to 1.5k dmg while DP is disabled or silence and spihon will keep her going and you die to ghosts. The longer the game goes the tankier DP gets and the harder it is to burst.
If a team is organized with a strong saving hero backing a DP its extremely hard to stop. A team like Oracle/Dazzle/Omniknight/Abbadon/Earth Spirit + DP has few counters.
I had not played Krob since they added Siphon. I tried it out the other day and it's very strong. https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2107939098
I got ghost/linkens/heart and I was pretty much unkillable.
"sf loses to krob since krob can secure a lead in first 3 levels and outsustain him. also krob will never go in range for the w raze (excluding invis and haste runes but thats a lot of ifs)"
Guys comon, the op is normal skill, DP mids aren't going to come in and nail every cs vs a SF and SF will get some extra right click dmg and keep up. I'm not saying it's a guarantee SF can beat DP but it's not a guarantee that she'll have a big lead first couple levels either. I fucking suck at playing mid, I am never ahead in cs, I just win cus siphon is op and most enemies underestimate it. You either force them out of lane or kill them, they get a lead.
"Zues lacks disable. You have to able to inflict something like 1k to 1.5k dmg while DP is disabled or silence and spihon will keep her going and you die to ghosts. The longer the game goes the tankier DP gets and the harder it is to burst."
I think once zeus hits 6 he has plenty of burst for a short window before DP skills silence. Idk zeus is just a pub steamroller right now.
In that chain of thought, what about skywrath? Has silence, has the burst for sure. Or just stay away out of her range with a sniper or drow? I don't think either of those can kill her but they can sit back and cs safely since DP isn't really that fast til eul's and they out range her. Actually drow can probably kill her with a good silence at 6.
With my DP I can get Eul's anywhere from 7-12 minutes, then O-Core at 16-22. BKB is usually the next item for survivability and such.
With this build, I've been pretty much unstopable. Sure, the enemy can focus you in fights, but that is what your supports are for, and thank God I haven't been getting shitty supports.
The BKB and even Euls pretty much trumps blaidmail, which by around 20 minutes ceases to be any issue at all.
The BKB also will stop Zeus, and other common pubstompers.
DP could go bkb to counter a bmail, but she can't get it soon enough if you are really playing to make killing DP the priority.
Bmail only costs 2200 and bkb is 3975. There is going to be a large gap (maybe 6 to 12 minutes) where DP is vulnerable and momentum stops. DP is a snowball hero, you need to take fights early when ghosts are strongest, and you need to take them at towers to lock in the advantage.
Ghosts are only up every 145 seconds. That's why you like octarine and even refresher. DP play is extremely dependent on that ult timing. Rupture CD is only 60 seconds. You can cast it on DP every time and still do ganks in between.
So if you go for Euls first and get it at 8 minutes... then suddenly you are trying to take a tower and you get ruptured and BS charges you with a bmail? You are out of the fight. You could euls BS, tp away, maybe, if you silence any stunner first. But you are out of the fight and most likely your team gets rolled without you, plus you wasted your ult.
If you try to fight it you will get focused down. Pubs are bad at focus, but everyone knows if you are ruptured you cannot run. They will kill you. The best situation is that you hit him with ghost focus and dodge most of the dmg with Euls, but its tricky to actually pull that off. Euls first build is also a super low HP build. Personally I like Rod of Atos first instead. Euls give you the option to cancel tp, but ghosts kill the target before a tp can channel anyway. If you use mp carefully and bottle/arcane tricks you don't need any mana regen, just a large pool.
I think the main advantage of rupturing DP is that it allows a normal skill team to focus for the kill. BS doesn't care about silences. He casts before he attacks from long range, then goes in and doesn't try to cast anything else.
I see you have 15 games of DP Elduryb and have never played against a BS.
I have 50 games of DP and only played against BS once and lost. I also see that I am 0-4 against Centaur. That may also be a very good counter. Centaur has huge burst dmg, makes it easy for the whole team to jump on you an get a kill quickly or get away. Centaur also is a great bmail carrier which I think is a real weakness of DP.
Bkb doesn't synergize that well with DP because you want a longer fight. BKb is too short.
@TripleSteal-:
In wc3, you could make a custom unit and add it ability "Locust" this makes the unit nontargetable but it behaves like any other unit, meaning it can attack, etc. DP's spirits are just units, like creeps and heroes, and they have attack damage (right click), they just use it once and then return to DP.
However, since the ability in dota 1 was based on nerubian's ultimate (locust?), it still ignored evasion and damage block, and does not proc on-attack effects, works the same in dota 2.
Dude look at the opposing heroes op is facing mid, it's ridiculous, no wonder he's on such a tear. He's feasting off snipers, pudges, alchs and teams without a clear mid. I only saw invoker twice, zeus twice, sf a couple times but think he was a safe lane sf cus other mids were present. I'm not knocking op I'm saying I don't think DP is a strong a mid as you think, people are picking like garbage vs you. My last three games, invoker, zeus, zeus, and they all destroyed our team's mid. 3k like every pick is zeus, invoker or sf.
@Relentless
Thanks for the advice, next time I play against a DP I will check these things out.
1 thing though, I really feel as though BKB is pretty useful. The 10 - 5 sec immunity still provides survivability imo - especially when their magic-burst heroes try to focus on you. If you have ghosts going, plus your nukes, you should be able to mow one or two down before your immunity runs out.
Thanks for advice guys
I've played a fair amount of DP, not tons, but 50 games is a decent sized sample.
14 games in Normal Skill (71.4% win)
19 games in High Skill (57.9% win)
5 games in Very High (60% win)
15 games Team games with no rating 62% win overall
Against Invoker 6 wins 4 losses, seems average
2-0 against Normal Skill invokers
3-2 against High Skill invokers
1-2 against Very High Skill invokers
Against SF 2 wins, 3 losses
1-2 against Normal Skill SF
0-1 against High Skill SF
1-0 against Very High Skill SF
probably not enough data to see a pattern but SF seems harder for me to beat with DP
Against Zues 4 wins 2 losses
1-0 against Normal Skill Zues
1-2 against High Skill Zues
2-0 against Very High Skill Zues
again probably not enough data... don't seem to have trouble beating Zues
Recently I've been going with linkens instead of bkb. I've been facing a lot of Legion Commander and other heroes likely to blink and cast a targeted disable. So i just silence them all when linkens pops and I've usually killed two of them before that first silence ends.
If people against me were smart enough and quick enough to use bmails I would have to go for bkb. But at this MMR (3700ish) level I always get a silence cast before the enemy supports can cast their disables on me. If i were at 4k +, that probably would not work anymore because speeds would be equal or I would be slower.
My last game I had very bad lag spikes all game. I still won but I died far more, primarly because I could not hit the ghost scepter in time so ursa would kill me.
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2109968306
This game would have been very easy if I was not lagging. But that timing is critical, an extra .25 seconds makes a big differnce. I see it all the time. Games I have lag I struggle to win at 3.5k MMR. If I don't have any lag I could probably go up to 4.5k.
so you're 12-9 vs the most popular mids. That's still pretty good but it's not like 80% win rate the op has on DP, it's a pretty average 57% win rate on a hero you're good at. Most people's top win rate heroes are somewhere in that range.
I just really struggle to see how she's op or the hands down best mid right now, of course a big part of that is cus I suck at mid with dp or anyone really.
@Dire Wolf, she used to be a decent mid, but now she's a great mid because if played well she can create a huge gap in her and the opponents' current HP, and can zone people out much easier now because you have to be afraid of more things.
For those who are new to Doto:
Always remember Exorcism's damage is physical, and as such Armor reduction increases its damage. Focusing on targets with low armor (Int and many Str heroes) yields the best result of Exorcism. That said, its damage is a threat even to targets with very high armour.
(Doto2 wiki)
As of now, I have played MID against These Heroes:
Windranger: 2
Alch: 2
Voker: 2
SF: 1
Zeus: 2
Pudge: 1
Viper: 1
Weaver: 2
TA: 1
Of these games I lost Only 2.
1 Because a player abandoned around 9 minutes.
2 A player picked techies, then the last player decided to random and got Oracle after we already had KotL. Slark did his best to carry the game, but we could never really push and end the game.
Had I not been stuck with the shit brigade, I would have won these games.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2106900182
This is really the reason I am wondering HOW to counter DP. Now I see in lane, you prob just want to dual lane mid, and late game, you just want plenty of armor.
Thanks for the help guys.
good dp players are very hard to counter if u let her outa control he will melt ur face and ur base..
count on ur roaming sups smoke ganks to lock her down earlygame thats the only way
talking about 5.5k + bracket obv
Well yeah, here in potato-land you don't get ganks from your supports.
If your team's lane gets caught out too far and the get ganked, even if I have been spamming "MISSING MID", then they freak out, and say
"EZ MID gg FF"
Weren't those the days?
Meanwhile I have +8 last hits + Bounty Rune and I ganked a different lane, and their team says,
"EZ MID GG FF"
Seriously though, playing where I am at will melt your face faster than DP.
XD yeah ive played on 2k mmr with friends acc:D i know the babyrage and cry on that bracket...
there are same kind of people on all brackets tbh u cant do anything about that XD
This is when i went 1v5 and killed 4 of them in the dire jungle. Phoenix was raging like a madman, mixing spanish and english. Prob one of the most fun things I have ever done. Sniper (Last hero alive - prevented Rampage) had 19 health :O
Don't know if you can watch it, but if you can, its worth it for the laughs
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2103220319
dota2://matchid=2103220319&matchtime=1179
screw mid, time to spam offlane
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2111930786
undying and dp vs a solo drow lol, most laughable shit ever
^fucking exactly, storm was nice. I guess people prefer to nerf a hero then learn how to position against him
Also why do you keep saying you get the vit booster as the first part of the soul booster. Isn't point booster like only 100 gold more
@kitrak
Exactly, fuckin YES!!! Minus the leshrac and storm part, that was actually retarded. I love the snowballin heroes, but the thing with storm was that he could have been rekt so hard, yet he could comeback with a single bloodstone, and leshrac was aids too. They were way to OP in pub games imo, and not only there actually. I belive that 1 hero needs to have the advantages and disadvantages and one of the main disadvantages of snowballin heroes is that they cant rly comeback if the screw up they need to be ahead most of the time to keep the pressure up, thats smth that didnt apply to storm spirit.
On topic:
Imo DP is pretty strong but she dies to burst dmg early game. SF/Voker/QOP can win againt her imo, sf and voker must be extra carefull coz if they scew up once she will keep pushin her advantage. Voker on the other hand after 2 forge spirits shouldnt have much trouble. QOP can actually burst her down and she has the choice of startin a fight or ending one, so its more of opportunity part.
Overall i dont think DP is extremly hard to deal with (talkin about my bracket ofc, idk how its higher). A good thing about DP is that if u start out csin her/Denyin alot she will use the wave to lasthit which will push the creep wave in ur highground where u can keep control of it and prevent her from takin all the lasthits, while at the same time leavin her exposed for a jump kill if the opportunity shows up since she will have to come to the river to lasthit, or be at ur highground.
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DP is steamrolling games if she is played well. My biggest nightmare every ranked game is that the opponent will chose DP before I do.
I've played against her (well, a good DP anyways) ONCE, and it pretty much pissed me off because I don't like my own weapon used against me.
Has ANYONE found a good counter to her?
In my mind Puck would be ideal. He has enough evasion/escape to not be harassed in lane as much, and his ult can force DP some issues if she is trying to force a fight.
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