Courier - - - - 120g
Obs. Wards - - 150g
Sentry Wards - 200g
________________
Total - - - - - - 470g
625 - 470 = 155g
So the only thing you can purchase now is Tango. Heh... That tough life of support...
And with that item you have to secure farm for your carry.
In Russia we have adage that perfectly describes this situation: "You can't scare a hedgehog with your naked ass."
one support gets courier and obs, other gets sent and smokes. or if you're solo supporting you only buy 1 obs, courier and sentries. normally the offlaner buys his own anyway. so that's 230g remaining, which is tangos and 2 clarities.
"Courier - - - - 120g
Obs. Wards - - 150g
Sentry Wards - 200g
________________
Total - - - - - - 470g
625 - 470 = 155g
"
One guy shouldn't be buying everything. If a game requires sentries then get them and skip observer wards. Obversers can be very overrated in pubs.
and how often do u have 2supports in pub lmao
if ur whining about not having sentries buy them urself for fuck sake
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1596723855
look what happens when the monkey supports dont buy sents. The retards all got dust and lost game. I dont understand how people can be this stupid
Between Bloodseeker, Zeus, and your own Radiance you'd think they would have been able to find you regardless
Yo sampson, good job in winning with your marquee hero bh man. Yea, sents are expensive. But if youre in my lane as bh, thats the first item il buy and try to shut u down man :] or make u change lanes :]
I play support more than anything, i always buy wards and team fight items, however iv'e found support players are undervalued and disrespected for most of the game. We get blamed if the team loses and we get forgotten if the team wins, we do just as much as the other heroes and we get abused and berated the whole game. In the carry heroes defense though, when 2 supports get picked i see it all the time that one ends up doing most of the work whilst the other does virtually nothing, i think if we was treated better among the other players we'd be encouraged to be better. you might disagree but i'm speaking from the supports point of view
^dats y i always suggest to the team during d picking phase, dont pick a pure support, get a multi role hero who can support.
0-4-4 in a game with 6 total kills and a complete stomp from the start as a roaming BH, yes clearly that game was lost because of me
I usually play support, and I pick ones that are strong without gold, because I open buying 2 obs, 2 sents, smoke, and courier, then buy a branch or a clarity.
This works best on heroes like Warlock or Lich who don't need gold to scale.
^Actually Lich is greedy support and Warlock is SUPER GREEDY.
Few weeks ago I discovered how amazing is Winter Wyvern. If you looking for a non-greedy support, you definitely must try WW.
How is Lich greedy? He doesn't need any mobility, no utility, no nothing. He just casts spells and that's enough. He also gets his levels by himself.
No he doesn't? I don't know what kind of game you are playing, but the ulti bouncing even 10 times is already almost impossible.
It can be countered by BKBs or Pipe, but if it bounces forever you forcing enemy team to spread, some enemy heroes may find themselves way out of position because of that.
Also, before lvl 16 cooldown is too long, so in some fights you will have only one spell available.
Even without Aghs they are forced to spread because it still deals 4600 damage in total if it fully bounces.
Lich is a counterpick to melee heroes. Those heroes prefer to press BKBs and run forward. When BKB ends they may discover that your ult still bounces between their creeps and eventually returns to them. I know it sounds unrealistic, but it happens too often.
Anyway AgS is just too good on Lich. No other item can match that.
I know what you talking about. Many players react very aggressively when they see Lich rushing AgS. They tell: "OMG, noob! Can't you just purchase your Mek?" But in reality you usually don't have mana to use all your spells and Mek anyway, unless you also buy Arcane Boots.
As I said, you don't need a mek either. You don't need anything. He is one of the most selfless supports in the game. It just boggles my mind that you insist on saying that Lich needs Aghs.
@Soultrap:
What is your mmr? Care to reveal? I used to play lich a lot and I agree with your analysis.
IMHO, meka on lich is good, but only after you get your point booster or 2 bracers. Lich str gain and starting str are very low. This mean that if you do not bulk up and just straight rush meka, your margin for error is very low, and people can burst you down very easily.
Another myth on Lich is that you do not need arcane boot. Lone support usually buy arcane boot. There is no reason why you should not buy for the team if you are the lone support, especially if you are buying meka. And if you are buying arcane, some other HP item like HH and vanguard as third/fourth item is actually very viable on him (though unorthodox) versus agha. Lich has decent attack animation and damage. Buying items like vanguard allow you to contribute in team fight via your auto attack and via tanking. Opponents will be surprised when they realised they can't burst you down quickly (due to evasion/damage block + frost armor). They will then tend to over-extend and this then present a better opportunity for chain frost.
My last opinion on Lich is that you should not always skill death pact first. Nova first allow you to be super aggressive from level 1. Death pact first just make you a walking creep. Also, you need not always max nova and death pact prior to maxing frost armor. A utility point at level 8 is actually very good. In fact, you can even argue to start skilling armor from level 8 to 12 (taking ult at level 11).
if there are two supports picked on your team you can guarantee one of them rushes aghs and doesn't support.
@Sam:
Your point on no need to buy meka is valid if you are playing lich as a super hardcore support (i.e. position 6). But I think that is super boring. Either way, I think we can all agree that Lich is actually a very OP hero (albeit old school and boring).
He is one of the most bland and boring heroes in the entire game. Like, he is so boring, that 3 of his skills actually were taken straight from the WC3 hero Lich, only ulti was changed.
@takodoro
4716 ATM.
But we moved off topic. My point is that there are less greedy supports than Lich. WW is best example, IMHO. And Dazzle is her closest rival.
WW is not less greedy at all. She needs good positioning to save people with Cold Embrace and to land a good ulti. And that requires items. All I can think of as less greedy is Wisp (though does good with items) and KotL (eventually gets farm with Illuminate).
Cold Embrace - 1000 range; Winter's Curse - 800. Sure Dagger is nice to have, but you can do fine without it.
Shallow Grave has 1000 range too (maxed), but nobody buys Dagger on Dazzle... I think...
IO is not a support at all. This thing is just something special.
In one of my recent games our mid Leshrac bought a number of sentry wards just to counter Riki.
We won, Leshrac ended with KDA 16/3/15, Riki - 8/13/9.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1592923570
Moral of the story: don't be shy to buy sentry wards, if you feel like you need them, even if you have 2 supports in your team.
Buying these subhuman scum sentries only helps them rise in undeserved MMR. I would rather throw the game
Yep, people prefer to flame supports, just not to spend a little gold on detection. Even if support buys sentries and asks initiators (e.g. Tusk, Clock) to carry them, they refuse because they don't have free slots in inventory (wand, shield, urn, other random shit). Obviously support can't be everywhere on the map at the right time to give vision. Unless we talk about support Zeus! =3
'your margin for error is very low, and people can burst you down very easily.'
It's so ridiculous reading what you're offering, holy shit.
Can you at least take into consideration what Sam is saying, who obviously is far superiour to you. If you're counting on yourself having awful positioning so people can "burst you down" before you can armor your team and eventually cast an ult or nuke, well.
I don't know what to say.
---------
On topic:
Uhm, what's the discussion? I'd be ashamed instead of calling out people you play with if I played with people not buying "blue sticks" as that would mean I'm fuckni awful at dota myself.
Take into consideration what people say, and ask yourself if it sounds reasonable, instead of bullshitting, thanks.
"Buying these subhuman scum sentries only helps them rise in undeserved MMR. I would rather throw the game"
uh what lol there are plenty of situations where its better for the carry to help out the support with the support items, for eg if i have a solo supp lion against a storm i will definitely buy support items if hes having a bad time, or like when u arrive at the lane and you have identified the offlane ward location its always better for you to buy the sents as the carry so u deward it in ~30secs rather than supports wait for their passive gold
they are ward bitches for a reason, prob because they suck at dota so as long as you are awful at the game you might as well learn to drop wards (both yellow and blue)
yea but you have to understand for specific matchups they really need items to function so deserve higher farm priority.
If it's at the start of the game you just gotta remind them as soon as you see like a brood, bh, clinkz, etc. Sometimes they just forget about it/don't notice so come with it in lane too late.
Ehh, they're 200 gold, and if the enemy team is haven't a good game, it's kind of hard to come up with that cash, and still walk around when the enemy has the whole map under control with fed heroes running around. That's when yellow wards that are only 75 look a lot more tempting to buy.
I'm assuming solo support here.
Sentries are expensive early game. There's probably a pudge on the enemy team if they have invis heroes because pudges like to accompany em for some reason so you need obs wards.
Also keep in mind you have to have enough gold for a courier upgrade at 3 minutes against most invis heroes so someone doesn't feed the courier. Since you're a solo support, you also need to get 100 gold asap for a tp in case your mid/offlane gets ganked. Don't rely on the jungler to tp in.
So all together within the first 3 minutes of the game not including regen, you'll need 75+75+100+120+200+220=790.
You get 925 gold just from spawning and passive gold in the first 3 minutes. 135 gold for regen. That's 1 set of tangos.
This is where the problem arises. If you go into the lane with only 2 tangos, you're not going to be able to harass for more than a minute if you're in most 2 v 2 lanes. You don't want to use the courier to keep flying up regen and asking your carry to share tangos in the lower mmr brackets isn't really gonna work.
So the really only viable way to survive as a solo support is to hold off on sentries and have the courier bring em up around 2 minutes. I'd advise pulling at least once. Otherwise you won't have gold for sentries. It'll put the creeps under the tower for a bit since it's a 2 v 2 lane since he or she won't be able to push hard enough to keep the creeps from going under the tower.
Edit: Thought about and I suppose pulling isn't that detrimental to the lane. Your carry might miss a hit or two but you deny em a wave of xp and you get gold for sentries.
The irony of this is Sampson has bought a grand total of 31 sentry wards in his dotabuff career and in those games won 22% of the time.
Food for random thought.
Btw joking in a way if anyone isn't picking up on that.
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Like how stupid do you have to be to pick support and NOT buy sentries vs a bounty hunter? Like I cant grasp the logic at all