Hmmm. . . Good questions. Don’t know if I am the best person to answer, but I will the best I can.
1. You don’t attempt to harass them out of lane. As you pointed out, you can’t. So what you want to do is try and pull the lane toward you, and use the spark wraith trick to secure both ranged creep CS. This leads to a level advantage, which you can leverage to kill them with. Grabbing midas early is key here such that you can get your maelstrom fast enough to snowball your farm.
2.Push tower, sit by creepwave while you do so. Flux makes her sad. Outlasthit her and use spark wraith trick.
3.Hopefully you did well enough in your lane to get early midas and snowball your farm. If you didn’t, then you are kinda hosed. As arc warden you need to use your level advantage to grab those key kills while you are still ahead of the fed enemies.
4. Diffusal blade is your best friend. Pop double, double flux, double wraith, hit her.
5. Dunno. Probably try and eat the summons he has.
Hmm if I’m against an arc warden I’d abuse his lack of mobility and hard control, so play around that. I’d wait for cookie’s response if he’s gonna show up, but I think arc does ok in lane. Especially with a strong ally rotating. Because if you run from creeps you get fucked by flux and well placed wraiths.
or you all could realize how shit arc as a midlaner is and just play him safelane instead
naw fam, i'm with hanyolo on this one, i don't even play arc how weak he is.
it'll work in low mmr or if enemy has a shit lineup, but otherwise naw fam.
I thought the talent changes would help but no :(
Arc so slow both in move speed and farm
Razor just walks u like a dog and steals every bit of damage u have
Cookie and the rest, can you help with the discussed topics?
I understand that arc is not the best hero. I think on Game Leap right now it is perfectly discussed for the last patches - its slow, easy to gank, no escape, requires too much farming, cant contribute when no ulti in team fights, die instantly etc. The purpose of this thread is not to trash the hero, but to discuss how to actually win games with a weak hero. Its not OP by any means. I just like the hero and would appreciate your guy's inputs on actual matchups.
To Zardecil and others:
1. Sadly, with the discussed matchups, I try to use spark as much as I can, but I can't come close to the late cause I get harrassed as well, and I don't always have the opportunity to kill the ranged creeps, since that group of heroes just pushes me away by constantly hitting me. I'll still try to work on it. But hte issue I have is that I don't actually do anything in lane, cant kill anyone and just end up not helping the team or myself to actually kill them later.
2. DW just goes invis, hits me with her spells, puts the traps, stuns and finishes me. No idea what to even do to counted other than get boost for movement speed quickly. Any tips on how to avoid this crazy combo?
3. In a lot of recent games that are similar to the discussed scenario, I might be winning the lane, pushing mid even. I could be 5 0 early game, but the rest of the team is just dying while I'm trying to get my items in the jungle, and my static field is just not long enough to stop 5 man pushing when everyone is caught out of position in a regular manner. I've had a ton of games recently, where I lost by dying once/twice in late game.
4. DIffusal isn't helpful in the first 10 minutes. She just ignores my spell damage...
5. While I hit her summons, she denies 2-3 creeps. I get ome money, but lose a lot of level... Any tips?
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3763715511
Watch this game from Arcs perspective, he was getting kills and won his lane
Dawn,
Not sure I'm tracking what you're saying. I've seen ~200 games now with different arcs including Cookie's old safe lane games, top 5 players in the world, etc. I've also won ~70 games by now with my arc, which means I know how to win mid vs the majority of heroes in my bracket. I also don't really know if playing safelane is that good since in my bracket most supports leave after 5 minutes and never come back, and I end up staying vs 2 people who both harass me and deny the creeps. I really do think that mid is a better position, since for the majority of time, I'm laning against 1 person. Yes, I might be getting my midas really late vs a lot of matchups, but after lvl 6, only a handful of heroes can actually stay vs me on their own.
Cookie,
Its nice that you're sharing your deep slang understanding. Thanks for your guide on Arc. I use it almost daily, even tho it is a bit outdated. Can you share your thoughts on how to face DK, DW, LC, Dusa mid?
Hi, I spammed Arc Warden from 3K to 4K and also play him whenever I get the chance to go mid. I'm not that good, but I have had decent success with the hero, and will gladly discuss its' strengths and weaknesses whenever possible. I'll start by addressing your posts original questions:
1. Tanky melee heroes are probably some of Arc's hardest mid matchups- not only can they stand right in front of the wave with a stout shield and tank your pathetic right clicks, but your slower than average animation and projectile make it hard to control the wave. You should still harass them as best you can anyways, because you are ranged, but in this scenario getting level 6 ASAP is a priority - bring a clarity or two and literally last hit with Spark Wraith - it has 80 damage at level 1 and with practice you can secure almost all cs.
When you are level 3+ play much more aggressively and flux them as often as possible while attacking them - this forces them to either leave the wave and take damage, or stay and be pelted with your snowball rightclicks for 6 seconds
At level 6, understand that the only thing stopping you from killing or gravely wounding a hero mid is a unit standing by them. If they are a hero that nukes the wave and goes to get a rune or jungle or something, go on them IMMEDIATELY with double flux the instant they leave their wave. The only time this does not apply is if they are a hero like Legion or PL, as these heroes don't care about your flux at all.
2. I haven't played much against Dark Willow mid personally - she's usually one of the many roamers that will gladly gank mid. My advice is to place pre-emptive spark wraiths near your tower so that if she dives with bedlam and shadow realm, you have counter-damage. Arc can split the damage between himself and the clone, mitigating that huge burst by a lot if you make it tank. If she is maxing Shadow Realm to harass you out of lane, take note of this and get a point in your bubble - it can evade this attack.
3. Medusa falls into the category of LC, Meepo, Enigma and anyone else that can either purge your flux or has multiple units to negate your damage - for the most part, you cannot kill eachother, so your best bet is to max wraith and get a point in skill 2. This not only allows you to defend yourself and your tower hard, but increases lane control. Focus on your midas ASAP, have wraiths watching for any rotations ESPECIALLY against LC, and try to get to your midas.
" But hte issue I have is that I don't actually do anything in lane, cant kill anyone and just end up not helping the team or myself to actually kill them later. "
Also, understand that at level 7 Arc Warden has one of, if not the highest kill potential in the game. 100%. He can output ~1.2k single target magic damage with double level 4 flux and multiple wraiths hounding down most heroes. Just imagine if literally any other ally was also using their spells to disable that hero - my point is, if you cannot kill mid and you've attempted to at least once, go kill someone else. Learn to send your clone to other lanes while you are mid, you can initiate fights with a flux and wraith before your clone expires in a lot of cases. It is no risk to you whatsoever even if it fails.
U think mid is 1v1 but the reason ur supports leave safe at 5 min max is because mid is rlly 3v3 support roaming shitfest
Just get some of your friend to play those heroes vs arc on 1v1 and figure things out on your own or smth
Supercellular,
Thanks for your comment.
In regards of (1), do you suggest to last hit ALL of the creeps with sparks? Won't I get 0 mana after 1 wave and then for the remainder of the time I'll be either trying hard to stay away from ranged mid heroes (or heroes who can easily stop my clarity mana regen with a random skill), or have no mana for the next 5 minutes. When I spend just one spark a wave, it still gets me to -20 mana each round, so I end up with 0 mana by lvl 6 and no way of killing anyone or stopping a random gank.
I also feel that everytime I harass them with spark/flux, they regen fairly quickly do mitigate my damage, and I just stay without mana. Also every clarify takes me 50 gold away from Midas, that is hard to get as it is with a harsh laning partner. Then I'm stuck with no mana, getting constant harass from them, and every roamer will insta kill me with just one stun/hook.
I try to zone them out, but to zone someone I first have to take out ranged creep (which takes mana) and then put another spark, and they just ignore it, staying upfront and taking any damge I do with right clicks waiting for my spark to blow the first creep in the next wave. Any time they engage, I get more damage. I have to wait for my regen to come with a cour, which is, sometimes, takes 2-3 minutes just cause random people steal cours, or I just wait in the line to get it. Getting regen out of fountains is also good, but I lose a lot of xp, and my team might get offensive.
lost dedicated,
I'm asking in a forum, cause I want to avoid an hour long exercise if the conclusion will be - just don't pick arc vs those lanes.
mynhauzen,
I suggest practicing last-hitting with arc against bots or doing the last hit challenge. not even being mean. arc has an abysmal farming animation if i've ever seen one, and it may help significantly with controlling the lane.. it's what i did to practice when i first started playing him. you can use spark wraith as a supplement, in an ideal situation you are getting a lasthit with it every time it is off cooldown through your constant attacking of both your creeps and theirs, placing a wraith on a creep you KNOW will die to wraith, while attacking your own creeps when they are deny range- this forces them to either go for the last hit or contest yours, sometimes you'll get both a deny and a last hit at the same time doing this.
Also, perhaps I misread, but if you are killing the range creep prematurely, don't do that. ONLY kill the ranged creep if you plan to attack them immediately after it is dead, otherwise the lane will simply push and you will lose equilibrium.
How are you ending up with no mana so fast? I see that you get aquila before midas which is good.. usually that gives enough mana regen to get the necessary 1-2 casts of wraiths per wave to help cs.
Summarily I'd like to see one of your games just to see anything further I could point out, if that's OK. just link me any particular dotabuff game/match ID where you were struggling the most with all of these issues.
Cookie himself said he doesn't play Arc. If mister Arc Warden himself doesn't play the hero, don't play him
I would recommend asking around Reddit, your odds of getting a real answer is much better there.
ETdAWESOME,
Arc Warden is completely viable, I 100% believe this. His viability is, however, limited by the skill of the player; it's a simple formula.
In truth, I have no qualms with anyone who disagrees - I don't want anyone lowering his win rate with the single-celled core player mindset that:
"X hero is strong right now, I will play this hero without even a grasp of his mechanics and just win the game because he's meta AF!"
Arc Warden was and always will be, strong; his balancing now however means that you have to work to win as him.
However, this post was written by someone who may have potential to learn the ways of Warden and be great at it. I'll guide him as much as I can if he wants it that badly.
I dont even know how to win a game with this hero. He was garbage before the patch and they nerfed him even harder with the talent changes.
lc is basically an untouchable alpha male god to aw, gg
bs and dk u basically need to catch out of the wave with 6 and flux. bs you can kill earlier but he also can kill you. if you harass heavily in lvl 1-3 u can win bs lane early maybe
u have 90000 hp so dw is not a concern, turn on her when she loses W and pop ult if ur concerned about her ult damage. if she channels fear go double flux (if u havent coz creeps) so she cant run, shitty low hp meme mid
btw if dk itemized extremely tanky (str tread raindrop soul ring AND wand) basically gg u cant do shit. in general always check for wand #1 fucker of kills besides ally hero
if you think i'm joking then you're insane
my answers stand as they are, arc is not a midlaner - he's a safelaner.
you're trying to do something that is impossible, you can't win lane against those heroes, simple as that.
in the previous patches his laning might have not been touched, but the rest of the midlane got heavily buffed and common picks changed.
my answer stays the same - don't run a dead horse up a hill, he'll tip over and crush you.
Just played Arc mid vs Tinker. One of the few matchups Arc still likes. Even more so now that Tinker has been eating nerfs. haha
His early game feels better, cooldown reduction at lvl 10 means midas for days and you dont have choose between it and the attack range anymore.
Maybe play DK or SF mid instead and problem solved ? Ez laners. Why would you bother learning such a difficult hero to play with, when you can have more impact with much easier ones ?
Your asking how to play an unplayable hero and win with it. It's like saying how do I win with Dagon terrorblade.
Just be much better than the competition in everything else to make up for how shit it is.
Which is basically like asking, how to get better at Dota in general. Because that's the only way you win with a hero that's hard to win against equally skilled opponents.
Guys, I don't really want to discuss if its a playable hero. It is a rathole that is going to move me away from answers to real questions I want to discuss. I'm totally fine with you guys giving up on a hero. I like it and never played it pre-7.07. I have no idea how strong/weak it was in the past. I'm just trying to figure out how to win with it now. Or at least increase my chances to dominate in late game.
HanYolo, I actually am around 50% win rate with my arc in my low ranked bracket, and I feel that I have a lot of stuff I need to improve (e.g., last hitting, decision making, mechanics). I think I can get it to 60%. I don't think its unplayable. I think that its less efficient compared with the previous meta, but since i never played it at that time, I don't care.
Cookie, l don't say its bad safe. I do play it safe lane sometimes. I don't want to discuss positions, but rather strategies against specific heroes. I might face DK/Blood in safe lane too. The position was irrelevant in my questions. I was asking what to do with heroes that don't care about my damage.
Supercellular, I don't have a really good game to show. You can check this one - 3768125661 where we lost. I think that rushing the boots of travels was a bad idea. I also know I've made several huge mistakes in the latter part of the game. I feel I did all I could to win, but I'm not sure if it was possible to win in that game. 3768085654 - The previous game vs Meepo mid. I feel that this Meepo was, probably, much better than me. I've tried my hardest to stay away from him, but he just simply dominated mid vs me and snowballed in late game. I do practice my last hitting, and I still feel that I need to improve.
Why are u so fcking brain dead? The hero is absolute dog shit and cant lane vs these heroes ur moaning about and there’s no miracle solution to solve ur problem you already wasted everyone’s time trying to explain to you that HE IS FUCKING DOG SHIT
Bring your midas down to 6-8 minutes average, learn to last hit properly.
do the last hit trainer till you can get 3400-3600 score with your eyes closed
do it till your fingers bleed from last hit training so much.
idk why you're all still arguing
cookie himself said that he doesn't play the hero because he's bad so there's no further point of discussing this since cookie's opinions are objective facts
@Cookie,
I'll try to get it to 3,600, but I feel that it doesn't actually help (since it involves a lot of denies with no items and you have to use specific tactics to get there) in the actual game. I see in your profile that your average is not 6-8 minutes, but is probably around 10 minutes. I assume you didn't mean average, but a target goal of 6-8 minute midas. It means that for every game I get it in 12 minutes, I should be getting a game when I get it at a 2 minute mark, which is nearly impossible in 99% of the games - because this is the only way a person can have an average 6-8 minute midas.
I also do see a lot of top arc warden players (including you) who are getting 30-50 lh in the first 10 minutes. Even after a ton of practice. So I'll be honest - i'm not buying this whole concept of - practice for 20 hours to always get midas at 6 minutes. I understand that you're playing vs strong laners, and I'll be playing against 2k trash, but my most popular matchups mid are vs sniper (who's lh animation is non-existent), SF/invoker (who's last hitting everything after lvl 3 and denying as much as they can), and heroes like DK/Kunkka who just stand right next to creeps and do what ever they want to deny stuff. I agree that in safe lane it won't be as bad with a good support, but it might also be crazy if I face 2 hardcore laners (cm/jug)
no, i do mean average.
my avg is 9 min because i play at 6k, not 1k ,if you go to the 2nd page or older on my dotabuff and you'll see it was 7-8 min when i was playing against 4-5k plebs. But in 6k, they 3 man camp my ass on the midlane, while you in crusader get to play against 1 guy who doesn't even have his keyboard plugged in.
you're delusional if you think you could compare the laning ability of a 6-7k player to some pleb in 1k. Yet alone that i'd have to play against 2-3 competent people in the lane at the same time, not 1 brainless scrub.
6-8 min average, bring it there, with the amount of complaining you do i would've already finished that 20+ hours of lasthit training. Last hit till your fingers are numb.
I think we heavily detracted from the main purpose of the thread, which was giving OP advice on something he wants to genuinely improve at. Yes, guys, I know it's strange to believe bring people up instead of down, but give it a try sometime.
@mynhauzen, However if I were you, OP, I would value the opinion of one of the best Arc players right now (Cookie) more than my own, if anything else. He's a much higher bracket than I am.
The greatest strength of Arc Warden is his potential to snowball exponentially based off of how well he does in lane, and when he gets Midas. Even if you are 0/5 and being camped by supports, you do whatever it takes to get your midas (gank other lanes and kill a hero that is by himself, I'm sure in Crusader most of the players haven't yet discovered the ancient tool Town Portal Scroll.)
You need to completely focus on your Midas timing, no matter what build you want to do after that - although I myself have been favoring the magic build, as his talents are insanely good for that - nothing is as important as getting it ASAP, and using it every time it's off cooldown. Dota has many tools for helping you improve at last hitting with Arc, make use of them often. And also, as Cookie has also said, I do think Arc safelane is the best way to currently play Warden, as his skillset compared to the meta mid Heroes is lacking. But I also do think it can work mid as well.
At the end of the day, Dota 2 is a game meant to be enjoyed, and if you're doing something you think is enjoyable, don't let others shoot you down for anything.
I like Arc vs Tinker. Is that a decent matchup for AW? @Cookie
BTW, regarding the midas timing, is that already with boots? My last Arc game, I got a 9 minute midas, but it was bootless; Aquila into Midas straight away
I did calcs at some point and to get midas without boots/any regen items - the fastest its possible is around 5 and a half minutes. I don't think its possible to last hit every single creep and buy absolutely nothing every single game. I think 6 minute midas is very good. I'll try to get there, but I won't be able to kill anyone on lvl 6, cause I'll probably be without mana and hp
But in 6k, they 3 man camp my ass on the midlane, while you in crusader get to play against 1 guy who doesn't even have his keyboard plugged in.you're delusional if you think you could compare the laning ability of a 6-7k player to some pleb in 1k. Yet alone that i'd have to play against 2-3 competent people in the lane at the same time, not 1 brainless scrub.
6-8 min average, bring it there, with the amount of complaining you do i would've already finished that 20+ hours of lasthit training
This seems like a needlessly defensive post. Myhauzen isn't really complaining about anything, just asking for advice when in certain circumstances and bringing up relevant data.
The hell happened to you Cookie?
^cookie has always been like that lol. But at least he actually gives good advice on this forum. Oher guys wouldn't even give helpful tips or anything like that.
because it annoys me when i have to tell someone 10 times to do the simplest thing, someone who would want to learn would find any way possible to learn, not argue it with a higher player who has thought this to hundreds before him.
Because of the amount of effort i had to spend onto burning my eyes off analysing replays to give you this knowledge, yet some lazy ass won't take the shortcut and JUST LOAD A LOBBY AND DO IT.
p.s tinker is a 50/50, he shits on you early on, you shit on him after 5-6
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Hey Folks,
I've been enjoying arc warden a lot. I've played around 150 games now with him, but struggle to stand vs random lanes. In my bracket, most folks are as bad as me, but I would still appreciate general guidance as to how to win/survive against the matchups I list below. I've watched all of the guides on arc available in US/Russian territory and even got a guide from Cookie. I've also watched a lot of streams made by Vaxa who's generally much significantly stronger than me mechanically/decision making wise, and he's generally playing vs typical mid heroes (e.g., SF), and I'm really interested in other matchups not listed in the majority of guides.
1. DK/LC/Blood: Laning Phase - My general idea is that rarely die vs those matchups, but they ALWAYS deny / last hit more than me after lvl 3-4. After lvl 4-5 they completely ignore my sparks/hits and just do what ever they need to get what they need. Once DK is lvl 6-7, and if I die by mistake (e.g., a nice rotation), I instantly lose my tower. LC uses Q continuously and heals if I attack him. I generally don't have mana or dps to actually kill him. Blood just runs away and heals a lot. What do I actually do to kill those, if its possible?
2. Dark Willow - I literally have no idea how to stop her from insta killing me if I try to move closer to her tower after lvl 6. I die instantly, and she kills me in seconds.
3. What do I do if I see that after 10 minutes our team is losing 1 10 and towers. I also see split pushers in their team or just overall strong hero whom I can't touch for the next 30 minutes (ursa, dk, dusa)?
4. What to do with Medusa? It could care less about my magic, and it simply destroys my tower if I leave for anything.
5. Enigma mid is outdenying me to the point when I'm 2-3 levels below her. Any tips?