General Discussionattack speed efficiency

Don't relate BAT and AS

BAT do make you attack faster, but it doesn't translate to dps straight with attack speed, it linear straight up with your DPS

aren't they relatable? the more bat you have,the better as you can stack on

wat does translate to dps straight with attack speed,it linear straight up[ with your dps mean? i'm pretty bad of deciphering human languages

@_@ I dont understand what he's saying but they're both in the same formula so not relating them is impossible

Attacks per second = [(100 + IAS) × 0.01] / BAT
Attack time = BAT / [(100 + IAS) × 0.01] = 1 / (attacks per second)

Lower BAT makes attack speed more valuable

2+2+4+2=12

wtf, you are showing the equation and you still manage to write that bullshit of "lower bat makes attack speed more valuable".

It's just a multiplier, by no means it makes any factor of the dps formula more valuable.

Attack speed is just one stat to maximize your dps. It's simple judgement to understand when you need more AS.

@_@ WTF??
It's not a DPS formula, it's just attacks per second.
Surely a max attack speed Jugg hits faster than a max attack speed Sven

Yes jugg attacks faster than sven with the same IAS, but NO it doesn't make ias more valuable on jugg than on sven.

If one write "Lower BAT makes base attack speed more valuable" (which is the "100" in the equation), then his sentence is as true as yours (and I think you can see the nonsense quite easily in this variation).

A multiplier is NEVER making any of the factor more valuable

It makes both factors more valuable, BAT translate to a multiplication of the dps

Juggernaut with no abilities with the same attack speed and damage as sven, will have 124.4% the dps of sven

Bat is the base attack time attack speed reduce this base attack time and the cap of attack speed is 600.
It depends really like for drow do u need the knock back? Then don't get AS at 15 for cm do u even auto attack then u don't need the 250 AS it just depends on the game and hero

@matrix
I'm not sure if we are defining valuable in a different way so
I meant "valuable" as in "increases more atk per sec"

aren't they relatable? the more bat you have,the better as you can stack on

NO

NO NO NO NO NO

NO

NO

lol lol
yes! help me dam you blue person

and seriously i don't really understand what you ppl talking about,any simpler explanations please

edit: ookay let me just write a scenario later with items and stuff,need to online dota to check the stats

I've never delved into the math of this because it's honestly pointless and over pedantic. Doesn't really help you play better. But I mean I do I have a pretty high iq and can help you figure it out if you give me some rares

BAT functions like crit. They both offer a % increase to total DPS output and do not favour either attack speed or damage in any way whatsoever.

what even is your question? it obviously depends on the game. if you buy a mjollnir, you want even more attack speed so you can get more lightning procs or if you are a hero with a crit, you do want to focus more on damage, but also not neglect attack speed so much that you hit like tiny.

if you buy a mjollnir, you want even more attack speed so you can get more lightning procs

correct

if you are a hero with a crit, you do want to focus more on damage, but also not neglect attack speed so much that you hit like tiny.

incorrect

I've never delved into the math of this because it's honestly pointless and over pedantic. Doesn't really help you play better. But I mean I do I have a pretty high iq and can help you figure it out if you give me some rares

The average chicken has more IQ than you 😟

You have 0 attack speed items and 0 agility, you have just 100 base attack speed. Now if you buy 100 attack speed, you will attack twice as fast, which means 2x damage which means +100% damage, and it doesn't matter what's your BAT.

Though, every attack loses 0-2 server ticks, which is more significant on things that attack extremely fast (Visage's birds, alche with AS items).

actually even the first is incorrect for some heroes because it gives like 80 ias and the only difference between mj proc and casual damage is that the former isnt multiplied by crit

mjollnir is magic damage, which is blocked by bkb, but will do much more damage without it. also, how is the second one "incorrect"? i suppose what i should have said is "having a crit or not is irrelevant on whether you should buy more attack speed or more damage"

if you are a hero with crit it means absolutely nothing on its own, u don't want to focus on ias/dmg just because u have a crit

mjollnir proc has the same interaction with ias as any other dmg source, except that it does not benefit from crit and is reduced by magic resistance as opposed to armor

i mean there are a lot of variables for every hero that u have to keep in mind and from the heroes that get mj regularly i only play sniper and i DO like to stack ias(mom) + mael, but thats because mael is majorly a damage item and indeed gains a lot from ur hero attacking fast, but mj is way more dmg/ias balanced - i never thought "damn u could rly use some ias to go with my mj" because i already got a shitton from hyperstone and whatever other shit i might have

Mjolnir gives set average damage vs a single target, you just calculate how much that is and work out if you need more damage or attack speed. Though, the AoE spread is an important factor and that scales only with attack speed. So, if that's important to you, you build more attack speed. Also, Mjolnir doesn't proc on towers.

having a crit does matter though, especially in the case of PA and CK. although the overall DPS might be the same whether you focus on damage or AS, having higher "burst" is very important for those heroes, which comes with higher damage, because attack speed doesn't make your first attack faster, only the subsequent attacks. also stifling dagger is a thing.

If you want to bet on that lucky crit, that's your choice. You're right though, the first extra attack that you get from 100 AS boost on PA will only kick in after like 1.5 seconds, but previous attacks will arrive faster than they would before, if that helps.

u cant simply calculate how much dmg mj gives because while magic resistance is usually 25% or 40% or whatever it is with hood/pipe(int heroes have a bit more but its not very significant), armor gives anywhere from ~80% resist to 0 or even amps the damage. the more armor ur target had the more of a "damage" item mjollnir is if that makes sense(i.e if enemy has 50% phys dmg reduction, mj gives 37.6 dmg per hit while daedalus would give 40)

aoe lighting is never really a factor u build around in fights, the damage is too low to be a threat to illusion heroes who tend to get 3k hp(if anything, the active does way better job at dealing with illusions)

Also, Mjolnir doesn't proc on towers

Crit is just a flat dps increase doesn't matter whether u have ias or +dmg

having a crit does matter though, especially in the case of PA and CK. although the overall DPS might be the same whether you focus on damage or AS, having higher "burst" is very important for those heroes, which comes with higher damage, because attack speed doesn't make your first attack faster, only the subsequent attacks. also stifling dagger is a thing.

pa builds mostly damage because she already has 130 ias whenever she blinks on a target, she doesnt build dmg items because it efficient(apart from deso), she builds whatever she needs to make sure the target she blinks on dies and it just so happens that a lot of those items give dmg. dagger isnt really a factor because u dont kill with dagger unless ure terribly ahead, u just need the slow.

in fact if pa didnt have the 130 ias blink and instead had some shit like -0.5 BAT on a blinked target people would build attack speed more than dmg because its better to blink and get a 500 crit in 2 seconds with 95% chance than to blink and maybe get a 1k crit in 2 seconds... or mb not lol. if anything huge crit favors ias because getting a 700 crit on a target with 300 hp left is a waste of dps

ck doesnt even build dmg, its mostly incidental, he has burst because he has a 500% dps multiplier not because he builds dmg

buy rapiers

not sure what teh fuck is everyone discussing on mjol and crit and ias. anyway y'all are throwing around IAS term incredibly loosely.

every hero has different IAS terms (IAS1 + IAS2 + IAS3) depending on agi gain + items + skills.

And OP asked a very simple question which can be answered very simply by Luxon

You have 0 attack speed items and 0 agility, you have just 100 base attack speed. Now if you buy 100 attack speed, you will attack twice as fast, which means 2x damage which means +100% damage, and it doesn't matter what's your BAT.

to summarize, your bat doesnt matter. simply put it, your existing IAS matters.

If your hero has 0 agility, that would mean you have 100 base attack speed + 0 IAS = 100 attack speed. that means any attack speed item you buy is 100% efficient. if you buy a 100 attack speed item it will make you attack twice as fast and your DPS increase by twice as much. regardless of bat. congratulations, you have bought a 100% "efficient" attack speed item. because 100 attack speed item gave you 100% attack speed, and made u attack twice as fast and gave you twice the dps. simple

the problem is no one hero has 0 agility and 100 base atack speed. so depending on how much existing IAS your hero has (the higher the existing IAS, the less 'efficient' would another attackspeed item be. example, if you have 100 base attack speed +400 IAS(eg., from 400 agi), buying another 100 attack speed item (increasing your IAS from 400 to 500) would increase your dps by way less than 100%. it's simple math really, if you are too stupid to understand i can show it to you mathematically.

so as a general guideline, because every hero has different inherent IAS (because of agi gain), so if you're a level 25 agi hero with high agi gain and you already bought a bunch of attack speed items, stacking more attackspeed is really fucking dumb. the lower your 'innate' base+ias, the more an attackspeed boost makes sense. which is why usually STR heroes like to get attack speed item (BAT DOESNT MATTER HERE). because they have lower agi and lower IAS to start with.

there is no such thing as base attack speed and there are no different ias terms or whatever unless u want to differentiate between ias sources for whatever retarded reason and all 3 of ur paragraphs reguritate basic shit that has been already said and can be expressed in 1 sentence

why dont u go back to ur amazing "trolling" - at least it just makes u look like a clown, posting on anything remotely serious just makes u look like a genuine moron

I've never delved into the math of this because it's honestly pointless and over pedantic. Doesn't really help you play better. But I mean I do I have a pretty high iq and can help you figure it out if you give me some rares

when was i ever trolling? im glad you agree with my explanation. even if you think it's lengthy and could be expressed in one sentence. yes i already quoted how luxon succinctly explained it as a kind of 'TLDR'.

and yet for some unknown reason you are trying to give hate for expressing a 100% correct answer to OPs original question, instead of pandering to your unnecessarily off-tangent and completely pointless discussion on mjol procs.

im guessing that somehow me explicitly choosing to not entertain your completely 'non-basic' and pseudo intellectual discussion (wow so fucking advanced lmao), has offended you to the point you had to belittle a completely (albeit lengthy) correct explanation - where it is so apparently basic (im guessing because you are too fucking smart) that for some reason unknown to the fucking world, there are still tons people here who struggle to answer the original question. okay smart ass.

I honestly don't get what the fuck you are getting at. Okay i'm sorry that my explanation/response to the relevant topic is so distastefully basic, but what the fuck is the point in you being an annoying prick and having to point out how much you disagree with how lengthily i expressed a point? I see no other reason except that you are a complete fucking laughable arse. I mean, we get it, you vape, you're too smart to read 3 paragraphs of something you already know - sorry that i detracted from your offtopic einstein level discussion - if it's not within your word limit. fucking pretentious prick.

so listen, no on gives a fuck about how smart you are, or how OCD you are because you have some unnamed higher standards because of some assumed higher intelligence (but of course you're just a fucking dumbass). unless no one else can benefit from my explanation in the same way you couldn't because you are a wholesome complete fucking arse, please shut the fuck up and never try to be smart again.

P.s. Yes different IAS terms is meant to distinguish different sources of IAS, because dumbasses like you loosely say "x" hero has "y" IAS which is compeltely false without knowing the context (what level, what item, what ability, what talent). but i guess that's retarded according to the "International standards of east london is a vampire - im smarter than you version 3.1". Anyway since you say all 3 paragraphs expressed the same idea, because you have the reading comprehension ability of a fucking 2 year old, i guess i'll have to break it down for you:

Paragraph 1 - on what scenario would give you 100% attack speed efficiency (to answer OP's question)
paragraph 2 - that there's no such thing as 100% attack speed efficiency with explanation
paragraph 3 - general guidelines on how to apply what we learnt on attack speed efficiency depending on your hero.

u dont rly think im gonna read all of that, let alone reply to it, do u?

if u wish to argue about something serious why dont u do this from ur real account, whoever u are (probably jacked but i cant say for sure)

there is no such thing as base attack speed

base attack speed is the reciprocal of base attack time. i meant to refer to attackspeed, which is the percentage expression of base attack speed. in the formula it is represented as 100.

east london, there was really no argument there. just calling you out for being a dumbass. lol. you dont have to read it, but everyone who does will know what a retard you are .

do i get extra fucking rainbow points for posting from another account? why does it fucking matter roflmao you are such a fucking dickhead.

because u dont get to post a bunch of unrelated horseshit in multiple threads trying to be funny over the last month and expect to be taken seriously by anybody

this was my last post to u

and seriously i don't really understand what you ppl talking about,any simpler explanations please

heres as simple as it gets

a hero with 1.0 bat attacks twice as fast as a hero with 2.0 bat

attack speed gives the same % increase to dps no matter what ur bat is. attack speed has diminishing returns with other ias items

if u have 80 damage and gain 40 damage, thats a 50% dps increase. if u have base attack speed and gain 50 attack speed thats a 50% dps increase. BAT is irrelevant to damage versus ias considerations

the mj/mkb against high armor heroes is actually worth thinking about, unlike nearly everything else in this thread

and yeah other people already answered this question pretty correctly

bonus: flat damage proc abilities (bashes, chilling touch) make IAS more valuable

burst damage abilities (tusk punch, geminate attack, boundless strike) make +damage more valuable

the argument about pa valuing damage is mostly irrelevant. She shouldn’t usually stack ias either way due to how phantom strike functions

The more attack speed that you have, the more valuable the damage increased is. For example, your hero (standard 1.7 BAT) has already had 500 IAS and 100 dmg.

If you buy a hyper- stone for 2k gold that increases 55 IAS:
Attacks per second = (1 + IAS/100) / BAT = 3.8 (attacks per sec)
DPS = 3.8 x 100 = 380

If you buy a mithril hammer that costs only 1.6k gold that increases 24 dmg:
Attacks per second = (1 + IAS/100) / BAT = 3.5 (attacks per sec)
DPS = 3.5 x 124 = 434

As a general rule, the more AS you have, the more valuable the damage is. And vice versa, the more dmg you have, the more value the AS is.

Lool well this thread was a whole new discovery indeed.. This HanSolo is not the original one, no indeed.. Hansolo doesnt rage, is a complete retard and cant even argue valid points
This is Jacked or i highly suspect Washed Up

Why the fuck are you arguing over basic 5th grade math, not even a complicated formula.

and besides, you don't need any of this shit, just go into demo mode and spawn that donkey.

poor coookerz just came here to discuss tensor fields and their appliances in dota and dotabuff niggas dont even know basic 5th grade math smh

the romans knew not to stack attackspeed

How could I be hanyolo

@east London. SJW, go fuck off with your cringey moral code thanks.

@awakened. That's true. But there are exceptions to that rule I believe. Anyway it's worth mentioning that the scenario you explained is not possible because 100base + 500 ias is the Max you can go. You can't go above 500ias.

i cant give you a rebuttal because im not reading ur fucking wall of whatever, but the questions been answered completely and uve been called a retard many a time so its time to give up

when matrice or sam actually post to tell you you're wrong, you're wrong.

IKR
I've got a hold of what's going on now