Kite him lmao
Heaven's halberd completely bricks that hero
Magical dmg - he has incredibly high armor
He's like Ursa, single target, all physical damage. He also struggles when he needs to switch targets mid-flight. He's countered by so many items like ghost and halberd, even items like a atos, glimmer, and force staff depending on the situation.
Get Glimmer and force if u are support. Ghost can be good but troll doesnt mind getting diffusal. Get a lot of CC to kite is one option. Forces him to go bkb. And if u have bkb piercing spells (think Bat bane) he really doesn't want to have to go linkens.
Necro is pretty good.
When i play Troll, i have no problem against Necro, just get diffusal blade and watch him melt in 2 seconds. If you feel the enemy is kiting you then get hurrican pike, gives mobility and stats plus extra range.
60 damage to targets that have mana, burns 50 mana per hit, on a hero that has an attack speed steroid
20 attack speed to get the steroid going
a really strong anti-kiting slow
removes euls/ghost/warcry/windrun
almost 3 armor
much needed int since troll is a dumb fuck
all of this in one slot, for 3k gold
ye it's a shit troll item never get diffusal lul
diffusal might not be 1k gold but if you occasionally see a creep on the map you might be able to buy it
and you get it every game you need to purge annoying shit, it isn't a matter of farming it up or not - you need it, you buy it
Mew you haven't played against a proper team so it's easy to itemize against one hero. But if u have to itemize against many other things as troll ur probably screwed.
I had a game where troll was ultra farmed and I was an underfarmed bloodseeker because the early game didn't go so well. However, I ended up building halberd and euls just to mess with the troll, and combined with seeker's skillset, troll was rendered completely useless out of BKB (and sometimes even during the bkb, if he is ruptured). And seeker isn't even a hard counter to the hero, considering he can never manfight troll even if he's got a small to moderate lead.
Troll suffers the "Sven" fate of being completely wrecked by utility items the longer the game goes. Ghost scepters, glimmers, force staves, halberd pickups, etc. Of course, a troll can get a bkb and diffusal, but the enemy having halberd means he can't really fight without a bkb at all if the enemy is smart, and force staves existing in the game means your initiation is going to be shit. Ghost scepters and euls can be purged but that's about it, items still wreck you big time. Lategame troll is going to suffer against tanky targets as well, because, as I said, he can't fight outside of the BKB if his enemies have any brains, and in order to lock targets down, he wants to get into the melee range, and killing a really farmed enemy carry in 5 seconds of BKB is not something troll can consistently do against all carries.
Both Sven and Troll suffer from the "Oh I initiate on this particular target, would be a shame if someone were to save it" problem. Troll is much better at sieging, however.
Ways to counter troll:
winter wyvern cold embrace and últ.
Sven high armor and burst damage and stun
Axe Beserkers call and pure cleave damage .
Shadow demon últ / saving people.
Bristle back, even if you get silvers edge, it forces troll to play a certain way which makes it easier for your team to kite and kill troll.
Weaver , can run circles around troll while dealing lots of damage.
Naga can ensnare you and últ to disengage and ruin your attack speed.
Beast master slows you and holds you in position.
Terror blade illusions and sunder .. you focus tb only for him to take all your hp..
Timberaw early game .
A lot of things work well against him. Just can't let troll get too ahead in farm .
Ghost scepter/heavens halberd/invi items, just like usually. If not full build, troll potencial in team fight is weakned by a lot, so basically dont feed him 1v1 and thats it
Pick Skywrath, pick Bloodseeker, press Q as Bloodseeker on Troll or Skywrath and then Skywrath nukes down Troll.
I'm not entirely sure about this but if u pick PL and earthshaker you'd probably do well against troll
Sven is always good. Though its a 50/50 matchup - who jumps on who first. Im always late for fights so I rekt troll with sven.
Shadow deamon with glimmer, force. Viper. Maybe razor ? Axe with blade mail ? Centaur with scepter ?
Its also fun with Wywern. Everytime enemy support stands near troll he's dead unless its super tanky ogre.
pretty sure that bs is a kiting hero and troll hates getting kited,seems like a heavy counter to me
double^ sven isn't so good vs troll as you might think.
troll is good hero to buy diffusal so he can ez dispell farcry from you or your teammate
he can ez kite you with range form(high movement speed) and some escape item(dagger, sb) and also good to get skadi on him
whirling axes just too op against enemy melee core , sven is melee hero
i can see the only one possible scenario when sven is good, troll is out position or you are overfarming him, so literally you can dagger burst him
^Terror you're retarded or just normal skill ?
By the time Troll has 2 items you alredy have 4-5 , BKB included what makes whirling axes useless. Normal farming sven is almost 6 slotted 25 min mark with crystalix as 6th item or hyperstone if you want to go AC.
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/62214156/heroes?opponent_hero=troll-warlord&metric=played
These are my games vs. Troll. As I said WW is very good and Sven has better win rate vs. Troll than Troll vs Sven. Or maybe Sven is just my main hero and IDC what enemy pick and I still win with it i dont know.
Burning his mana is the biggest counter to Troll tbh. KotL is the best one. Invoker is okay. Rupture is good against him. I also side with Sven vs Troll tbh. It would have to be a perfect situation for Troll to actually kill Sven fast enough. Sven also farms much faster, has better spread damage and his single target damage is more bursty. Also you can buy Halberd on Sven. It's not the best item but it's okay. Other heroes I like against Troll are Kunkka, Ember Spirit, Treant and Dazzle.
Just get a ton of force staffs and get away from troll so he switches targets or goes ranged form. Ez pz. He'll lose all his fervor stacks that way.
Theoretically sven farms faster but in pubs I play troll a lot and have never found a sven out farming me. I mean I never actually get matches of troll vs sven, just observing by my troll games when I'm ready to fight vs sven games. Besides both can push out a wave and clear entire jungle before it respawns so farm is more limited by mobility and farming patterns than dps to creeps (svens cleave vs trolls whirling axes). So it's more limited by mobility which troll is faster move speed and by player skill.
Troll isn't that bad vs Sven.
I don't think it's a highly favored matchup tbh.
Usually as troll u can get to this point where cores lack bkb and u can easily focus supports and siege with an aegis and or cheese.
If u don't end by this point u slowly start to get fucked.
I have seen so many Sven vs Troll comebacks it isn't even funny. Even though they suffer the same problems the later the game goes, Troll will DEFINITELLY lose if Sven is rekt in the early game, but then picks up his pace afterwards, and Troll isn't finishing the game. In the situation where Sven is really weak and rekt by a really strong offlane, but troll had a great game, troll just has to get an aegis and finish in a huskar-like fashion, by pushing high ground 20 minutes into the game with his team.
If Sven is caught in the middle of a fight with his ult running out, he'll die to Troll.
If Sven is initiated upon by the likes of magnus or Enigma, troll has a chance of killing him.
If Troll Silver Edges him and starts bashing his head in before Sven has the reaction to turn on BKB, ult or Warcry (or even halberd him), troll MIGHT Win, because it's hard to depend on those bashes to make it really count.
But in general, in most stages of the game, considering equally good farm FOR THEIR HERO (which means troll is just about 500 GPM 20 minutes in, where Sven is over 700 GPM 20 minutes in), Sven will just win unless Troll has better setup. Again, BKB piercing stuns on Troll's side can turn the tide around.
If you pair troll with Treant, Enigma or Magnus or even a BM, Sven might have a really tough time. If you pair the same heroes with Sven, Troll's team will never even be able to fight unless those ults are on cooldown, because Sven's combination with those heroes is much stronger in case they capture multiple heroes.
If Sven has saves like Oracle, Dazzle or sometimes even WW, Troll will likely just flat our lose. On the other hand, if troll ha the same kind of saves, he MERELY GETS A CHANCE because Sven is more likely to be in control of the situation anyways.
A way to counter both of those heroes really hard is to have an invis roamer hero could build halberd halberd (treant or bounty) and always halberd them before they jump into fights and use BKB, this is something that wrecks both heroes really hard, aside from the fact that a hero like Treant is really good vs both of them.
There are so many circumstances in this matchup that you could write fucking essays on it, but the gist of it is:
Sven farms faster, gets his core shit faster, has more spread damage, but is more likely to lose certain lane matchups by the virtue of being a worse laner than troll and not having the ability to sit back and last hit from range.
Troll has shit comeback potential, Sven has one of the best comeback potentials in the game (well, if he's not TOO rekt, because he REALLY depends on hitting his timings at least somewhat competently, and his comeback largely depends on what kind of heroes you have drafted him with/against, of course).
Troll has a pretty big advantage vs sven in that there's no way sven jumps him without blink. So that's a 2k gold item sven has to farm while troll is farming stats and dps.
Not getting the jump means troll always gets axes off. It lasts a lot longer than svens hammer stun. It's not dodge on troll, it's miss on sven, so sven can't just target someone else and cleave troll to death like he can with PA.
To counter that miss sven can use bkb, but that's going to burn charges early. Alternative is buy mkb but that's not an ideal sven item.
So troll pretty much takes sven out of his comfort zone. Alternative is don't focus troll, let sven wreck back lines but a good troll will follow him and get the axe debuff on him and try to perma bash him down. People think it's a good matchup cus sven can keep up in farm, has similar windows to fight and has warcry to protect team. Using that logic I think PA with AC is better, PA won't out farm but can fight really early, goes deso to get through trolls high armor, and forces troll to buy the mkb. Then AC will protect team as much as warcry.
Anyway carries don't really counter troll, except for maybe ranged ones like sniper is honestly a good counter, troll can't really init on him, maybe if he goes shadowblade or blink, even then it's hard cus sniper has so much range. He'll just stall game at high ground and out carry troll late. But items and support picks matter a lot more than carry picks vs troll.
"Troll has shit comeback potential"
That's the only thing you wrote I agree with. Troll does not play well from behind.
Sven does absolutely not farm faster than troll in reality. To do so sven has to get stacks and blink. Who the fuck is stacking for you in pub matches? Blink means troll will have better stats and dmg mid game.
^The error in your thinking is that you believe farming a 2k item for initiation is more trouble for Sven, it really isn't. In an ideal game, Troll has shy off 500 GPM at 20 minutes, where Sven easily has over 700, 800-900 even with consistent stacking.
2k gold for a dagger is drop in the bucket.
Besides, Sven can do his best to avoid fights against troll until he's ready to face him, where troll loses more the later the game goes. Troll has miss chance on his side, but Sven has monstrous armor, which troll kind of has to build diffusal against, or not fight warcry'd sven at all.
Not to mention that ulted Sven just has a shitload of fucking HP, coupled with retarded armor, it makes Sven almost impossible to burst down for Troll.
The problem is that with Troll, you have to initiate on Sven at his weakest to beat him - if Sven is underfarmed, hasn't built halberd, doesn't have BKB ready, isn't as tanky (because underfarmed), doesn't have any backup, etc.
And I am not talking about 3k pubs here, I am talkinga bout actual DOTA, what you could've seen in high MMR games, or what you could've seen at tournaments, with players who actually play DOTA, and not this "reduced" version that we do.
With Sven, you do not have to initiate on troll at his weakest at all - in most games, even lategame, with proper itemization, you might be able to 3 shot him anyways, but the later the game goes, troll's weaknesses of being an attack speed hero VS Sven being a damage hero really show, as well as troll BUILDING tanky vs Sven ALREADY being tanky, and both heroes being dependent on bursting each other down. Sven is a hero that can just build a fuckton of stats and hit hard, troll is a hero that eventually has to get damage items, and troll can't burst him, but he can burst troll down.
A sven without any damage items can still kill troll lategame (though Sven would prefer to have a blood thorn or daedalus), where Troll might be able to KITE sven with skadi, but if Sven's team isn't afk that just isn't enough.
"Blink means troll will have better stats and dmg mid game."
Just no, Sven already has better stats overall, greater base damage, not to mention insane HP and armor from his abilities. Troll has to build an armor item in order to even stand a chance, or at least some heavy stats with agi, Sven doesn't really have to, but you might get AC later sometimes.
The fact that troll needs diffusal to purge warcry in order to initiate on Sven is a greater problem than the fact that Sven should get blink (if he doesn't have proper setup to just run in and cleave shit). You see, 3k gold is much harder to farm up for Troll than it is for Sven to get a 2k item. Still, diffusal IS good on troll, but if that's all you have vs Sven, when he has his blink treads echo mom (which is realistic considering just ho faster Sven is), he'll just kill you in two seconds of his stun, no questions.
Yes, you might initiate on Sven when warcry is down, but good players really take warcry cooldown into an account, and don't just fire it before blinking in, but after blinking in to give the buff to their team too, so you kinda really want to be able to purge it because if you activate your ult and hit a target with +20 armor, you've basically wasted it.
Even if you consider some shitty all-encompassing statistics, you can see that in pretty much all brackets, Sven farms CONSIDERABLY better.
https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/economy
The difference might not seem too big, but you have to realize that on this graph the average for Alchemist is 632.19, and that's really low.
Sven is in a completely different farming league than Troll. Sven is closer to Medusa and Luna, and troll is closer to Morphling and Sniper.
It is not even comparable, the graph might show a difference of about only 20 GPM average difference, but this is cnosidering that majority of the stats for this are gathered in sub 3k games. And that isn't even DOTA. But yes, Sven farms faster and better even in lower MMR, and the only reason non-farming intensive heroes seem to farm CLOSE to as good as good farmers is because people just can't farm at lower MMRs, stacks are nonexistent, etc.
I can hit 600+ gpm on troll fairly easily
I hit 700+ but not 800 on Sven
Of course I'm 2k so wtf but troll isn't that slow at farming, tho Sven does it better
However imo troll at 25 min has aegis and cheese cuz he enables Roshan for his team, and smth like diffusal vlads/MoM and sny of her has a good game and unless sven has a 25 min bkb and a good game himself becomes rlly hard to deal with, u burst troll once, even, but he aegis or cheese and comes back, if u get bashed ur done.
If svens team can hold on at that point sven wins lategame, if trolls team runs em over they get rax at 25 ish min and snowball off it.
There r a lot of factors in this matchup and it's not rlly worth it to go too in depth into it.
I just don't understand why you think sven is getting 700 gpm at 20 mins in games. Post me an actual game, not a pro match but an actual 3k pub game cus that's what's relevant since 90% of players are that and op is that I'm sure, where sven has even close to 700g at 20 mins.
I haven't played sven that much recently but this is my best game on him. 35 minute game where we took all rax and towers, that's a ton of tower gold. 9-1-12, that's a lot of kill gold. 8.14 cs a min, not spectacular for pros, amazing for pubs, I could've afk farmed more instead of finishing game I guess. 610 gpm. That's basically like a perfect sven game for a pub and doesn't break 700 gpm in 35 mins.
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3193465366
Your games, only looking at wins, 20-40 duration over past 12 months.
29 mins, 6.89 cs/min, 654 gpm. https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2701940209
28 mins, 8.85 cs/min, 753 gpm https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2770633678
39 mins, 7.6 cs/min, 587 gpm https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3267350801
You broke 700 gpm one time in a game you completely roflstomped, and you're telling me it's expected by ~20 mins in a normal sven game. 664 gpm average.
Look at my troll wins over last 6 months, 20-30 mins
571 gpm https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3330538018
715 gpm https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3330263079
641 gpm https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3324042581
638 gpm https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3263343989
641 gpm average.
Sven's your best hero, troll's mine, we're both around 3k. Yes sven is a faster farmer, but pubs do not farm significantly faster on sven than they do on troll.
Regardless this is turning into a sven vs troll discussion when they are very different heroes with different roles. Troll wants to push pace and fight with team with his ult to melt towers. He's a pusher. Sven comes in and with setup wipes entire teams with cleave dmg, he's more like a team fighter. Troll falls off late, especially once bkb wears down. Sven does too, but all it takes is one good cleave crit to wipe 2-3 heroes so he remains dangerous entire game. Troll is harder to kite and needs less setup from team but his ceiling is less than svens. Neither are the hardest carries in the game, troll pushes a little faster, sooner and has a shorter window, sven's timings are all just a tad later. Troll's like an anti carry with his bash and man fight ability, sven wants to aoe the whole team.
3k is a bracket where necro support and wk jungle win every fucking game, so the data is completely irrelevant. If you pay attention to actual tournament and high MMR data, the things are vastly different than this pretend DOTA that we play in 3k.
If you compare matches from the "guides" section where you have both Sven and Troll stomping or having close matches, but not having perfect games in general, Sven will still have about 100 more GPM on average. Troll finds it really hard to break into the 700 GPM territory, and even though he does it sometimes, Sven often does it more often with ease with a good game.
You just can't argue against ancient stacks and the general farming speed of Sven. The original argument was that Sven needs to spend 2000 gold more on a mobility item that doesn't give stats, but that's a really dumb way to look at it in the first place, because it gives you an instant reposition onto Troll's face, which is unmatched by any stat you can buy. Utility > stats in a lot of cases, just like Halberd is amazing vs troll if you fight him on equal footing and unnecessary if you're stomping him.
well then why even bother posting about it if all that matters is tournament and high mmr data? Of course sven will farm faster in those settings, I never once said he didn't. I said with someone stacking for you sven's farm potential is a lot higher. In pubs it's not cus both clear everything available.
And halberd sure it fucks troll up, cus items counter troll, not heroes as everyone has been saying in this entire thread.
I wouldn't pick either hero as a counter to the other. The rest of the team matters a lot more.
well then why even bother posting about it if all that matters is tournament and high mmr data? Of course sven will farm faster in those settings, I never once said he didn't. I said with someone stacking for you sven's farm potential is a lot higher. In pubs it's not cus both clear everything available.
But that's real DOTA. In essence, 3k DOTA is really not relevant to how the game is designed, balanced or should be approached - you should at all times presume a scenario where people who play the actual game are really good. If people are not good at the game, then literally nothing matters - a meepo booster who is 9k could pick meepo from 0k to 5k with about 90%+ winrate and not give a shit whether the enemy picks hard counters to the hero. And that's not because meepo has no hard counters and is good vs wyvern and sven, but because that person plays dota against people who don't know how to play dota. Even similarly skilled people often hero counters because a counter to a specific hero is harder to play than that specific hero.
I mean, storm spirit is definitely good against blood seeker in many ways, but it is irrelevant in a lot of cases because storm is just a harder hero to play. A lot of the time, a blood seeker player will outplay a storm EVEN IF THEY ARE OF EQUAL SKILL, because storm is harder to execute. This is because people playing those heroes aren't even close to the skill ceiling which is much higher for storm than it is for bs, but being very close to skill ceiling of bs is much less rewarding than being close to the ceiling with storm since there is way less outplay potential. That's what 3k and sub 3k games are like.
As I said, any sort of discussion pertaining to 3k or even sub 3k dota is meaningless, because this is a bracket where jungle wk and support necro win games. It is only meaningful to discuss things that happen in real high level dota, unless you're talking about boosting or spamming heroes to get tons of MMR, or something along the lines.
Discussion about game mechanics, game balance and in general, heroes, items and literally anything pertaining to the game only carries some weight if people playing the game can utilize those things. Else we could make a party, play at 1k MMR and build 5 dagons. A discussion on how this is a viable strategy would be meaningless.
And halberd sure it fucks troll up, cus items counter troll, not heroes as everyone has been saying in this entire thread.
A lot of heroes counter troll in lots of different ways. Sven has a fuckton of armor, bane and BM have single target bkb piercing disables, bs has rupture, axe destroys troll, shaker just ruins him prior to BKB, etc. It is disingenuous to say that troll is not countered by heroes because he is. But items do put a nail on his coffin and being countered by items merely means that any hero lineup, regardless of the picks, CAN counter a troll. It's the same thing with lifestealer - while PA and QoP definitely counter lifestealer, so does every mobility spell (belonging to a hero) or a mobility item (bought by ANY hero), as well as armor and evasion, which anyone can build or have innately.
I wouldn't pick either hero as a counter to the other. The rest of the team matters a lot more.
Well, obviously, that's the point. I started the comparison to Sven by outlining troll's weaknesses with kiting and timings, I didn't originally pit them against each other.
I think troll does decently well vs Sven , however even is just a better hero , so even if troll is slightly good vs sven , the Sven will win more games by virtue of just being a better hero in general .
if icefrog were to be balancing the game around the 3k average shitter bracket then there would be no such thing as balance
I guess when this is your average troll and Sven performer you may have a point.
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3412153910
I out farmed both as offlane viper. This troll sucked ass.
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This hero is so op,strong throught all game,very clear powerspikes,can kill anyone in 3 secs,he so fast and his itembuild is so flexible.How do you counter troll ?