Can u summarize the argument again because I'm kinda lost on the walls of text in the previous thread.
When u say safe lane slardar. Do u mean pos 1 slardar, meaning no other farm dependent hero in the game to carry, I.e fast tempo end game early strat,
Or do u mean like safe lane but he is basically an offlane pos 3 slardar in the safe lane?
Using dotabuff winrates that count the vast majority of the sub 5k playerbase is meaningless. Next you will be telling me spectre is broken and needs another nerf because it has 56% winrate.
"Safelane slardar has a higher winrate than morphling and AM safelane."
That does not mean that slardar is a carry, just that he happens to be located in the safelane (maybe even as a support, which is viable to some extent), and you can place him safelane to secure early blink while your actual carry farms offlane. This was actually quite a typical thing throughout TI5/TI6 and majors, to see slardars, centaurs, axes and whatever hero whose blink dagger is prioritised - put into a safelane while a carry is aggro trilaning with two supports in the offlane.
"Please, tell me how safelane slardar is so bad."
He's not bad in safelane, if you put him there to get some items going and then have him control the game, but he is a shit carry compared to a lot of other heroes. You want your carry to have SOME idea of flash farm, and if he does not, you force fights early and take towers and gank. In this case, you could say that he is similar to CK in that aspect. Except for... CK has monstrous lategame and is actually good at hitting towers while slardar has pretty shitty lategame as a pos 1 carry and sucks ass at hitting towers unless he builds for it, while he's pretty decent as an offlaner/utility hero and is even played as such even if given top farm priority in the early game.
"Safelane slardar is so bad that (safelane):
-He wins .12% less than PA
-He wins 1% more than morphling, weaver, void, clinkz, AM
Wow. How "BAD"!"
I hope you do realize that the data you are referring to includes a ton of 5 core lineups, lineups with jungling carries, spectre offlanes and similar crap, to the point where it is just not relevant at all. I would like to know how he does in the safelane in 5k+, and even then, if played as a pos 1 carry, and not as a space-creating initiator/damage amp which is all I have seen the good players play him as, pretty much. There are no statistics on how a pos 1 slardar does if his offlane is tidehunter, and his mid is not a particularly well-scaling hero, but that would be pretty garbage, unless the draft needed exactly that.
Now, it is not to say that a six slotted slardar is going to be BAD lategame, the problem is that if you play against medusa, yes you can blink into her and pummel her down and make her unable to attack anything because you have a shitton of attack speed and bash her all the time, but at that point you have to realize that if both slardar and medusa are six slotted at the same time, something is seriously wrong with that game to begin with, at a point where you have an AC, have eaten a moonshard and have a carry 6 slot build in general, medusa would've been six slotted 25 minutes earlier and likely already pushed with the team and taken all your towers (unless her team was massively behind except for her).
A six slotted Slardar is THEORETICALLY good against a six slotted Sven (bkb piercing bashes and all, complete negation of Warcry buff), but, likewise with medusa, Slardar is never going to farm faster than him under any circumstances unless the game is a complete stomp, so it's irrelevant. Also, amp and warcry counter each other to an extent, but in general, even in that matchup, Sven is favored because he can "remove" amp from any teammate with more than 50% of uptime.
The data you linked also shows that there's about 2% difference in offlane and safelane Sven, but who the hell actually picks sven AS AN OFFLANER? Even if you pick offlane sven you still want to get dominator and treads, stack ancients, and build the typical sven build, you are NOT an offlaner because you happen to be farming it, and even that data could refer in great part to aggro trilaning sven with some ridiculous shit like IO and one more powerful support, as well as people picking him to farm offlane even if they already haev safelane AM.
TL;DR: Slardar is a shit carry, nobody should put hopes in his lategame and a potential to outcarry well scaling/fast farming cores like sven, ck, medusa, spectre, jugg and the like, even if he is, at some point in the game, much stronger than some of them or has the ability to counter them in some way or to some extent.
As hinted earlier , slardar in safelane farming is viable but you would want well scaling heros in your mid and offlane as well , otherwise you risk losing game if your early game doesn't go as planned .
ROfl, so slardar is a shit carry because he can't go late game as well as a medusa?
Try harder my little 3k mmr playtoy
slardar is shitty safelane carry in pubs
fine with a team going full caveman dota
No, he is a shit carry because he can't flash farm, is not good at hitting buildings, does not actually deal that much damage even with carry items, and does much better in another position.
"ROfl, so slardar is a shit carry because he can't go late game as well as a medusa?"
Well, that is not at all what I said, but nice try. Still, even what you said here is dumb, because I could say this:
"ROfl, so sven is a shit support because he can't support as well as WD?"
And yes, he is. Slardar is a shit carry because he has few advantages over other carries at any point in the game, and that's what this is all about. He is not an early fighting monster like Juggernaut, who will still deal respectable damage (even AoE damage, with bfury) lategame. He's not an alchemist or antimage who will outfarm your carry despite your carry having a better late game, he is not a spectre who farms like shit early, but can wreck your whole team lategame, he is not a Sven who's tanky as fuck and can take ancient stacks and can go 1v5 with monstrous AoE damage, he is not like drow or luna who'll delete your buildings and whole team if decently farmed (in drow's case, despite not really having flashfarm, but itemising for it), and so on.
Seriously, for a 4k guy, you are really fucking dumb, but I had known that since the moment you started citing really misguided winrate data that has nothing to do with anything.
"slardar is shitty safelane carry in pubs
fine with a team going full caveman dota"
I am pretty sure that any safelane carry is viable as long as you have a strong strategy underlying that type of a pick, by going MVP Phoenix with 4 melee heroes, as well as having shit like IO, ogre and dark seer on your team, or maybe having omni constantly repel you in fights, or invoker giving you alacrity, etc, yeah, the hero gets much better and with a fitting draft it can work. But the OP didn't say that it works in particular scenarios, he instead quoted some random winrate data which is completely meaningless, and I can't believe someone who has 1k MMR on me can be this fucking dumb.
^or we can settle this with an actual blue star
"Using dotabuff winrates that count the vast majority of the sub 5k playerbase is meaningless. Next you will be telling me spectre is broken and needs another nerf because it has 56% winrate."
"slardar is shitty safelane carry in pubs
fine with a team going full caveman dota"
I mean, it is not a 3k vs 4k guy thing anymore, this is basically 3k and 5k+ (one of whom is 6.4k) stating things which are contrary to a mentally disabled 4k.
but i think OPs point is not really contrary to what u say u know? except for his slightly dodgy use of statistics. i think u guys are kinda arguing about different things
My point overall was that slardar safelane is a legit pick rofl. You acted like he was a 20% hc hero, but the fact is that if you play well with slardar safelane it's not like he's so shitty that the game is auto loss, even if you're vs a hero like sven, slardar is an okay hero to have as your HC. On par with a few real carries. Better than an ember spirit in winrate overall, matches up with some carries.
My point was that slardar is a legit safelaner. He's not as powerful as jugg would be in every game or something but that's not the point. It's that if you lose with a slardar safelane it's probably because the slardar and his team suck, not that putting slardar safelane is game losing. He's a good safelaner but he's not an "OP hero" like OD so you get butthurt and say he's bad.
"why would u ever pick safelane slardar if u're not in a 5-stack"
Why would u ever pick slardar if u're not in a 5-stack
its good when ur team can play around it and end the game early
he falls off hard later
I played against a Stack once that Had a safelane carry Slardar who went armlet>deso. He had and ET as a Support. Whoever they jumped on ended up with negative 35 armour and died instantly. I cant remember what the rest of their team had, I just remember them melting one of our cores immediately every fight and stomping us.
Then there is every other game where I've seen a Safelane Slardar and he did pretty much nothing another hero couldn't have done better.
So safelane slardar isn't outright bad (like trying to play carry CM or some trolly shit), Its just really situational and only really works in minus armour strats.
OP you're a fucking moron. Safelane slardar is 49.5% win rate. That's like slightly below average. Offlane slardar is 52.8%. That's over 3 pts higher and top 1/4th of all heroes.
Clearly slardar is MORE EFFECTIVE in the offlane.
People do not say safe lane slardar is shit cus it's actual shit but because it's relative and he provides no benefit over just putting him offlane. Cus his strength as a carry is that ult debuff and bashes/crush, which he can still do as an offlane.
"I played against a Stack once that Had a safelane carry Slardar who went armlet>deso. He had and ET as a Support. Whoever they jumped on ended up with negative 35 armour and died instantly. I cant remember what the rest of their team had, I just remember them melting one of our cores immediately every fight and stomping us.
Then there is every other game where I've seen a Safelane Slardar and he did pretty much nothing another hero couldn't have done better.
So safelane slardar isn't outright bad (like trying to play carry CM or some trolly shit), Its just really situational and only really works in minus armour strats."
I just don't see how he could only do that as safe lane. Armlet + deso isn't expensive, offlane could farm that with a couple good kills/ganks early.
Am and morph r both harder to play than slardar, and have a lower winrate in general (i think). And look at actual skill bracket not ns bracket anything works in random pubs.
@ Dire Wolf: Offlane Slardar could do that as well. Just that safelane can farm it a bit faster and get the ball rolling sooner. I only mentioned it because we're on the topic of Safelane Slardar and it was a traumatic experience XD
Yeah I understand, just saying that is always the argument against it. It's like skywrath mid, why would you play him mid when he excels as lane support? Some heroes just work better in other roles.
If someone wants to go slardar safe lane I won't complain, I'd rather that than some shitty AM picker. I'll just pick a support with physical dmg like WD or an offlaner who right clicks.
NO, I'm not a moron, I just don't mind people playing unconventional strats in my ranked pubs. If they pick something wild I try to adapt. I don't expect a TI7 draft. It's a ranked pub. Nowhere in a ranked pub does it matter that your pick is not great. What matters is how well that player knows his hero.
Did you know w33 loves to play skywrath mid in ranked pubs? W33 knows skywrath really well, and he's 8k, is he stupid for picking skywrath mid in super high mmr pubs when invoker is better? or OD bro?
What even the 5k shitters in this thread fail to understand is being good at a hero far makes up for his weaknesses. And slardar's winrate is only 49.5+ in the safelane even though no one is even used to playing him there.. He's just an OK safelaner, nothing too special if not a niche pick. But he's not bad. Up to par if anything.
W33 is rlly good at mid, not everyone who picks him is, and w33 isnt good at support sky so he doesnt have the option of playing that in ranked
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Safelane slardar has a higher winrate than morphling and AM safelane.
Please, tell me how safelane slardar is so bad.
Safelane slardar is so bad that (safelane):
-He wins .12% less than PA
-He wins 1% more than morphling, weaver, void, clinkz, AM
Wow. How "BAD"!