i know lol im not talking about ns lmao (talking about ns is pointless, its a different dota where no rules of balance apply) why do you think i have this kind of winrate with the hero (my only losses are when people abandon the game)
besides, i am aware of the fact that high mmr players and pros do play riki as the hard carry i am just asking cause i dont want to trigger people with my picks
hurricane pike, skadi and manta arent rly good, while basher, deso and butterfly are far better choices.
daedalus isnt core on alchemist cause it doesnt synergize well with radiance/octarine/manta build, which is basically the only way you see this hero being played rn.
yeah but alch can melt people in 1-2 seconds with phase daedalus armlet and some AS item (assuming like min 15-20) so i guess i''ll keep building it.
manta is unquestionably strong on this hero as he can use illusions really well - invisible scouting, actually rat potential, and even do complex micro while ultimate. also the hero craves on stats, which manta provides and also abuses the massive amount of agility riki likes to have, meaning riki+illusions rightclick damage hurts a lot.
agreed with desolator being good, but lategame (30min+) manta style provides more raw damage, and also provides health and slow. its like 10dmg ,1000HP, skadi slow trade to -7 armour
pike is just upgrade from dragon lance which is really cost-effective damage addition with some of much needed durability
manta costs 1.5x of deso and is irrelevant for the whole period of riki's strongest potential which is midgame.
if u build lance for cost efficiency, ud better go for 2nd diffu, rly. pike gives u nothing but a bit of agility and str for 4k gold.
idk i always build diffusal-basher-manta-diffusal2, even when roaming, even when i play vhs, and it seems powerful enough to me (the extra damage during ulti is nice, you can also body block people from escaping the circle while hitting)
force staff is useful, even for pushing foes wrong way or, in my case, fucking up LC duels
also always use blight stone until have skadi
however i saw some pros playing hard carry riki and they built skadi thats whre i learned about it
thx for replying triplesteal ur the best
its up to u, as long as it works.
no one builds this way above 5k, though; and I'm not doing it either, cz it just wont work. I'm not good in theorycrafting and can only offer you my intuitive understanding of dota. my game sense tells me manta is a bit suboptimal, and hurricane pike is just meh.
Riki carry is a noob stomper, it deals wayyyyyyyyyyy lot of damages but i don't know for high level, i'm 2.7 and i stomp everyone with him
my build i use on ranked is: Diffusal, S&Y/Manta (i pref S&Y), Abbysal, and a butterfly, after that it depends on what i want to build, like maybe a bkb for being a piece of sneaky shit unstopable or a daedalus for MASSIVE damages.
He cant carry agaist real carry heroes, best riki players playing him on pos.4, even pos.4 allow him to semi carry in late
@pippo why you say that? there are not that many carry heroes who can come close to riki regarding DPS
riki can tear down pretty much any damage-dealer (sure he might be unable to take down full 6 slotted centaur or axe) within the length of abyssal blade's stun in lategame
Riki can't out carry even a farmed and duel-buffed LC, let alone a real hard carry lategame. But you can play him as a roamer and slowly transition into a damage dealer. That way your team has a stronger lategame by the virtue of the other team having to worry about your damage as well, and not just the really good silence you'll provide no matter what. Plus your farming ability is one of the worst in the game, so you can't count on being able to farm creeps, instead you have to farm people, and this is why you're much better off as a roamer instead of having a lane dedicated to you. Let your spec/sven/jugg/whatever farm safelane, while you go applying pressure around the map. Even a CK is better farmer than riki and that's speaking volumes of how bad he is at farming the jungle or clearing waves.
Plus, why are you talking about killing people during the abyssal duration? Do you really think people are just going to stand there and watch you kill their carry? Lategame there are going to be glimmer capes, force staves, solar crests and tons of other things to mitigate the damage you do, so thinking you'll just get to abyssal and kill whoever you want is kinda wishful thinking, unless you think you have infinite diffusal charges to purge anything that might be standing in your way.
Now don't get me wrong, it is nice to apply pressure this way and force people to group up, especially if you can counter that as well (by having a wombo combo set on your team), but in reality, if people actually have brains, they won't go around alone and vulnerable if they know they'll die in the abyssal's stun duration to a riki.
One lategame hero that I know Riki can actually screw up pretty hard is Ember, and that's if he doesn't build against it and doesn't play safe enough. Otherwise he will "only" screw him during early and mid game.
Riki isn't the best carry but still viable imo. Riki is better played as a roaming support cause he transition to a strong right click hero later on eventho played as a roaming support.
you think people in high mmr don't get cought out under any circumstance? enigma 4 man blackhole,riki catch antimage, gg ez. there are many stuff like that, say a tidehunter, or axe call.
any hero can be killed by focused down, that's no arguement either
if anything, it only helps riki because he is actually harder to focus down than most other carries. and a failed attempt to focus riki is incomparably deadlier than it is with most other carries.
My argument is that riki is a shitty pos 1 farmer due to many reasons, and another one that if you want to actually be good at the game, you shouldn't pretend people are always going to be as bad as you are at the moment. If you want to play against better people, you should play as if your current opponents were higher MMR.
I've seen replays of 7k+ people playing roaming riki, and at no point did I think "oh wow, this guy would've done much better in this game if he was given safelane farm". Because that's not how the hero works, you're supposed to be cancer to the enemy team and apply pressure by not being seen for a while, then pop up with a silence and suddenly two heroes die because you took their wards 2 minutes earlier. From here on you can transition into a semi-carry who can complement the actual carry's damage, but at no point do you actually count on being able to carry that game or even get much past the diffusal blade, because you're not farmng and your ganks can fail, and you cannot fall back to the jungle because you're the worst farmer in the game.
You WILL be delighted to be able to snowball and become another carry the other team has to deal with, but it's like pos 4 kunkka - can output tremendous damage with tidebringer-laden armlet and daedalus, but might never get to those items. Otherwise, Kunkka is a better carry than riki considering he can actually farm well and reliably get the items he needs to function even if there isn't much action on the map.
yeah i've seen 7k+ playing safelane carry riki and he go 20+/1 completely destroy everyone.
im not saying that carry riki is better than roaming, im talking about picking riki when there are only pos 1 and pos 2 positions avialable in the draft.
the pike sounds rly fun tbh, idk how GOOD it would be though
I think besides the issue of ur teammates being super tilted and throwing, riki remains extremely fragile for a long time as a hard carry and his damage isn't that great. he is fantastic at pressuring the map and getting pickoffs but I think they have nerfed carry riki too hard to allocate pos 1 farm to him
That's nice and all but you're banking on being able to quickly reach your peak, and then use it to win the game quickly. You can play pos 1 abaddon and actually go for stuff like greaves, drums and vlads, and if you get decent farm nobody will really be able to stop your five man pushes aside from a good counter pushing team (and that's questionable). Now, what do you do if it fails? Nothing, you haev no pos 1 carry, you hope your mid is going to snowball and you've ended up with a shit hero that can't come back from a bad laning stage unless you've gone full retard and build radiance in which case you have to fall back to farming and pushing waves out while at the same time trying to be in fights with your team.
Now, that doesn't mean pos 1 riki or pos 1 abaddon aren't viable. Pretty much everything is. Pos 1 or pos 2 warlock can safely get an early aghs and wreck towers with it. It all comes down to what's generally drafted and how you go about it. If you have a game plan or they have heroes that you counter really hard, riki might be a good option. Otherwise and in general, you're just kinda trying to lose a game because you have a funny idea.
I guess I carry all those games only cause i'm more skilled than my opponents. well, if anything, that's quite flattering.
i know for a fact that in certain lineups riki carry is viable, but i guess i'd refrain from picking it into any given draft since it would tilt the shit out of everyone.
@薄氷 u can try daedalus on alche aswell, i usually build Alche as ganker, tanker, damage dealer and don't like radian on alche ;)
http://www.dotabuff.com/players/328199215/matches?hero=alchemist
Spamming riki against carries that he's bad against and who can farm faster than him is kind of an instant lose, unless you're much better han the opponents. When I play unranked I get people all over the 3-5k spectrum so people range from being completely clueless to alright, but when I play with my friends, all games are normal skill and it's possible to see carry bounty hunters and rikis all over the place. And they often win because some dumb fucks cannot understand the importance of vision.
But "dress for the job you want, not the one you have" applies here. As I said, if you want to play against better people, devise strategies that work against better opponents. If I ever start grinding ranked MMR again (I stopped at 3k so I am still in NS ranked) I am gonna stop spamming LC because people are used to the hero since it's popular and often draft or pick against it to begin with.
but riki comes online extremely fast, he can kill the carries, and possibly rest of enemy team, before they get to their 1st big item.
however i do agree that he does rely on snowball and he mustn't die.
min 6 roa(wraithband)/treads/blade of alacrity +lvl7, blight stone, and not many can really fight him. a bit low on movement speed in this setup though so might want phase boots instead. and he doesn't even fall off that much in comparison to most other carries
He also preys on lack of coordination and communication, so he's way better solo than if you happen to play against 5 stacks, because even a 3k 5-stack is going to punish a pos 1 riki pick, and even a random 7k solo queue pub can lose to a pos 1 riki. It all comes down to what you want to exploit - people's lack of coordination, the fact that nobody in your bracket even attempts to counter you, or you want to become better at dota. If you're consistently picking sub-optimally and you know it but you still win most games, you'd be winning even more games if you picked smart to begin with. You picked pos 1 riki, but your team really needed something like a spectre, since it has good early game otherwise, but riki's too snowball dependent. I went to grind from 1.1k to 3k almost always just spamming legion. If I played other heroes more I'd have higher winrate, but I just chose what I am comfortable with and what I know I can win MOST games with, and not as many as possible. If I wanted to win almost every game, I'd have picked smart, and what the team needed. A lot of my LC picks were game losing because we'd lose lanes before I come out of the jungle, or I was heavily countered to begin with even if I laned. But I didn't care because I still had 70%+ winrate with a stupid pick.
Now, you should ask yourself if it's worth it to pick sub-optimally when even you know it is so.
"and he doesn't even fall off that much in comparison to most other carries"
Well, good luck trying to fight into a good AoE wombo combo, trying to survive good lategame supports, or trying to take down really tanky heroes. When would you pick a pos 1 riki instead of, say, a juggernaut? Riki is also terribel at hitting towers, you basically need to kill everyone off before you go high ground, and that might not be easy or viable at all in a game scenario. It is not just about how much you fall off, but also what you can do. Riki will fall behind if people play safe, because he can't farm fast. He'll not be able to go high ground unless he kills people and has a bunch of farm and kills up on them and they cannot ever hope to come near his net worth, which will rarely happen should the enemy have cores that can flashfarm (which you can't). What does a pos 1 riki do against spectre lategame? Literally nothing, pretty much. The only way you win that matchup is being much better than the opponents OR screwing their early game because you peak earlier.
The main problems with 1pos riki is that you can't flash farm , you can't fight most carry head on and u suck at pushing towers.
isn't riki quite hard to counter though? supprt dewards one lane and it already puts immense pressure on people playing in that lane, even if the riki isn't going to gank the lane at all
as i said, there are almost no hard carries that can reliably survive riki abyssal blade (riki has more than enough ways to pop linkens too), so fighting poeple 1v1 isnt that much of an issue.
He can push towers fairly well with his strong manta illusions.
He has problems with durability though, that's for sure. (which is the only real reason mentioned here why i think he would be a bad pos 1)
Riki is countered by anything ranging from high movement speed to actually having armor. Early game he's even countered by a tp if you don't have anybody else with a hard disable to help you. He's also countered by team coordination and good game sense on the enemies' parts. Also countered by nukes because his HP is abysmal. Also disables. Also... Actually. The hero's shit as pos 1 because if the team commits a little bit on him they can wipe out your pos 1 carry. On the other hand, if you're a pos 4 hero, that beastmaster might not roar you, but you might turn out to be more trouble than your underfarmed spectre. So we are not really arguing whether something is POSSIBLE because pretty much everything is possible, we are just discussing why you'd play a hero in a suboptimal role.
Why are you assuming you get to hit people for the duration of abyssal blade is beyond me. Does the enemy have no supports and no disables of their own? This is like saying a sven with a storm bolt and daedalus and moon shard can teamwipe. Yeah, he can. And how many times is it that the enemies group up in such a way that's possible, and are disabled for long enough, and nobody reacts in time? That's very unlikely, but still possible, and even more possible the lower you go.
Why are you preparing to play in a way that warrants that your opponents are imbeciles? And more so, a six slotted riki can't take down quite a few carries during the abyssal time, considering they've built smart. Try taking down a spectre with tons of armor and HP during that time, and then just die, because that's what riki does to any competent player lategame.
@Arena.Gosu
already tried, works really well (bursting people in seconds was from experience)
I think in the end it breaks down to skill of the player. riki has enough tools to ignore any and all of the counters you posted, but skill of using those tools is the deciding factor.
also riki doesn't have to play solo, who sais he doesn't have a stunning support in his team like a lion or something.
spectre or maybe alchemist would be the only ones he cant take down that i can think of, because dispersion and alchemist naturally being strength hero with high regeneration. also possibly dusa
you do realise 6 slotted riki can reach burst of around 4.5k dps right? and that abyssal blade stun lasts 2 seconds. 50% physical resist and abyssal block rate would not save any hero that has less than 4k HP.
If sven uses warcry he's also way off the mark. Medusa as well. Even a stat-heavy juggernaut is off the mark if he goes for a tanky build which is smart if you're afraid of dying of riki. Anyone who has good base hp and str gain or builds it and goes shivas or AC at some point, actually. Anybody riki can't chase down. I mean, a six slotted riki is completely incapable of killing a LC that has built tanky, and can die to her very easily if she jumps him. I just fail to see what heroes riki can take out lategame, unless they've built really stupidly, while they knew there was a riki in the game. A glass canon carry of any sort is food for riki, if they do not build mobility and have no game sense. A sniper who builds mkb and desolator but no survivability or mobility is food for riki.
Now, is winning against stupid or bad people really something you should be proud of? Because I am not.
diffusal blade for sven and dusa, ez food.
as i said, alch, spectre and maybe dusa have chances. in their optimal builds that is.
you going for a heart+AC on a terrorblade so you can survive 2 seconds of abyssal blade?
LC has some chances too. Good luck (gonna need it) if you're going for a blink or lothar on her though.
Yeah, because you're going to have an abyssal and be six slotted before Sven has built heart/satanic and AC.
Look, I know you have done and tried many things, but there's a reason why you're winning against shitty opponents. It's because they play like shit and you can pick stupid shit. I can do that as well, I am just not proud of it, nor do I claim it's a good tactic in general. Because if something works against 3k players or even 3-5k players in unranked it doesn't make it good or particularly useful. Pretty sure you could go carry AA and still win the same matches you win with riki. Those people probably rarely see AA and have no freaking idea what his spells do, so they'd keep dying to you, just like they do not properly counter you when you play riki, to begin with.
Riki doesn't do shit to medusa because she'll flash farm and outfarm him even if she dies 5 times more than he does. But you play against people who can't farm for shit and who get caught out of position because there's no warding or safe zones to begin with, and that has more to do with supports not having map presence than you being good at riki or riki being good in general (and he is, for certain things).
I literally do not recall seeing a six slotted riki ever since I've started playing hs and vhs unranked, that shit just doesn't happen. It doesn't even happen when I get dragged to NS unranked when playing with friends, because we'll usually just start getting detection and shitting on him because once disabled he just fucking dies. He'll either win the game early if he pressures the map enough or he'll fall off later when big teamfights start taking place, and the enemy carries have outfarmed him because he cannot be everywhere at once.
On the other hand, I've seen six slotted alchemists, ams, terrorblades, svens, medusas, spectres, juggs, slarks, etc, shit on whole teams, because fuck yeah they can and will. Some of those heroes need a farming item to really farm up, but no sensible build of riki's builds farming items unless you're going for a battlefury and even that's kinda subpar.
not saying i am any good in pos 1 riki, in fact i have only played him a few times, i always play roaming/offlane riki.
i just know that riki is among the strongest hitters in the entire game, and the thought of that alone makes me think about playing him in pos 1 or 2
i myself would say 2.
pos 1 also doesnt mean you are going to have to lategame, min 10 treads wraithband diffusal (teammate drums) and you likely shit on their entire team already. not alone of course, but a stun will be enough to guarantee a kill
oh TA can prove to be difficult but a skilled riki will strike when refraction's off cooldown
You just know, or you think? What does "among" mean? Top 5? Top 10? Top 15? Top 20? And it is not all about DPS, either, medusa actually has piss poor DPS without a rapier, ON A SINGLE TARGET. Now, killing medusa is a whole different story (which an unrealistically farmed riki which you spoke of can do, maybe), so her effective DPS is likely to be way higher than riki's (considering enemies are even attempting to counter riki). Plus, she can siege towers rather safely if built well.
What you're basically saying is that riki can do a lot of damage against people whose laning phase has gone poorly so they are behind, or that he can do a lot of damage against people who are simply bad players and hardly do anything to counter you.
I mean, I really would like to vouch that LC is a good hero, because I like playing and spamming her, but to be honest, it's a shit tier hero that only works because people are dumb. Your idea with riki is kinda the same thing, except you propose scenarios that, consistently, only work against bad people.
I can speak how awesome it is to have 400 bonus damage and backdoor racks while the enemy team is pushing another lane, but I won't. Because I know why it happens and the reason is people are really bad at dota, and I am exploiting that. LC has enormous DPS with 400 bonus damage from duels, and is really hard to take down with a tanky build, but so freaking what? Does that make her a good carry or pos 1 material? Fuck no, it's unreliable and the hero is too easily counterable.
Actually I think LC pos 1 is pretty good, tbh.
anyway, i doubt that we should continue this discussion, you are speaking as if skilled teams never lose their vision or never get picked off in unexpected locations, or even cought out of position by a support and stunned.
Riki is tied for 5th best DPS, same spot as Alch (daedalus stacking) Jugger (omnislash on single target) and Meepo
At least acoording to my testing.
I think it's pretty useless to dedicate that amount and safety of farm to a hero like that, considering it can easily fail. I'm pretty sure going for a safer carry that just needs to farm (and not farm duels) is way superior, and having LC offlane and abuse their weak laner carry. I've won games against spectre by going offlane with LC, but I would not have won them if that spectre got farmed. And I abused the fuck out of those lanes because they were weak. If I were to farm the safelane, we would have no insurance in case things were not as good on my end, and you can't guarantee you'll get a lot of ganks smoothly in order to gain duels, and the hero's fucking shit without duel damage. LC has the same problem riki has and that's that the hero requires constant pickoffs in order to progress, granted, LC has a way easier time farming than riki, but the hero with zero duels is way less scary than a similarly farmed riki (though riki without pickoffs is not going to farm up anything, while LC can still come back if the enemy has an even worse farming core).
Okay, so you've placed him in top 5. Good. Now, tell me, it's lategame, what would you rather have - an alchemist that scales his whole team up with aghs and can frontline pushes, a juggernaut that can hit towers much more consistently and can build very tanky while still dishing out really good damage, meepo that just dies to any decent AoE or single target focus, or riki that is... for some reason... as farmed as the enemy carry who can flashfarm (never happens against decent opponents)?
well as you can see in the game linked in OP, I barely got any pickoffs that game (huskar was fountain-camping), but still 600+gpm. riki doesn't really farmthat slow man, 1 hit for ranged creep and 2 hits for melee creeps, 3 hits for siege creeps... 0.45s attack speed... 15-20 mins into the game
sure, its nowhere near sven/dusa/slark, since riki can't jungle, but its competitive.
That's 215 last hits in a 40 minute game. Apparently, you do not quite grasp what FAST means.
How about this:
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2664175382
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2665744446
Can you compare that to your 215 last hits? You have a skewed idea of what "not that slow" means because you assume you're gonna farm the lane, while not being able to quickly farm the jungle as well. And we are talking pos 1 riki here, and a pos 1 hero should be able to, or at least build towards being able to flash farm jungle and push out lanes.
Besides, any hero CAN FARM if he has any sort of farm to start with and uses it to propel his farming, a riki that buys a ton of agi items can attack fast and kill creeps fast... faster than if he didn't have those items, that is. He has no innate farming ability, and cannot use his passive against jungle creeps. If I really HAD to play pos 1 riki and had relatively decent opponents I'd probably go for a battlefury build because otherwise I'd be way behind in the midgame if I don't get a ton of pickoffs and get to end quickly, while everyone is too afraid to come and kill me.
And no, riki is NOT competitive in terms of farming, hence why literally everyone outfarms him, and why he's bad pos 1 carry material. On the other hand, riki's way more useful at lower levels when nobody can really defend themselves from his pesky silence, and when he can boost his damage a good amount with relatively cheap items and supports are way too poor because they are too busy buying wards. But in terms of farming, he's nowhere near competitive, since he has no farming efficiency to speak of.
Too squishy to have an impact honestly
Even more snowball reliant than QoP because riki doesn't exactly have any farm tool
I was pos 2 though (mid)
and i had a lot of focus in the early game + i was against storm, which slowed me down considerably (not to mention i bought wards and was roaming a bit)
i know 200 cs is quite pitiful , i wasnt even trying to take every single lasthit though, just push asap
i guess pos 3 teh life, because riki mid sucks too
it was quite an insightful conversation, i guess my question might be answered - riki pos1/2 highly situational, daedalus alch fairly good in the early manfight build
I mean, I basically spammed him to get from 1.5k-3k..
It really depends on your lane, which could be Offlane, Safelane or roaming. Generally, it's hard to find a pub that'll let you Safelane a large amount of the time.
I like to stick in the offlane until level 6 personally. But if I have to leave because the lane is just over, I willl roam.
Basically you just get treads, an orb effect or a venom, maybe a windlace and then either Diffusal or Yasha. Sometimes you get stick or wand, obv.
I like to rush diffusal, but you can also pick up an Aquilla if you get a good amount of last hits. I like to break it into a vlads when Riki has some real damage but I don't really build it myself.
Almost pulled off losing with Riki with high kda normal skill style . Luckily we won so saved from the embarrassment .
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2667947954
Thing about vhs is, an experienced riki can still stomp(not me). He's 100% used to getting countered, and i bet that if hes playing pos 1 or 2 he'll prepare and anticipate the counterplays. Without vision, its all mindgames, like techies.
You carry your team quite well though filth, 1/4 more HD than your carry. No yasha with treads though, i'd see that as a lousy choice of item but oov with diffusal and pa dagger is good slow yeah...
My build on Riki is pms tangos , into oov , boots, treads , diffussal , vanguard , basher abyssal. So every game I'll have diffussal 2, treads and abyssal. Other three slots go to what I need but usually at that late in the game I wouldn't need damage and yasha , manta is ok. Mkb butterfly skadi all options I would consider however a position 4 Riki with diffussal 2 , abyssal, and treads is enough to end 90-95% of games since you have 3 other cores so items after those three usually don't really matter .
Btw position one Riki could work with certain lineups and against certain lineups would be a niche pick though . If playing position one you would shoot for super early diffussal then make space for the rest of your team . You would probs want a mid that scales well like invoker . In solo que though your team would never work with you to accomplish this they would pick another carry asking you to support so would only work in party .
thing with treads is that you lack movement speed, hence why most tend to go phase. yasha helps with the speed while also providing some cost-effective dps
also in vhs people counter riki with force staff (you forgot to mention)
also manta+gem=next level dewarding, also game-winning invisibility scouting (to see in high ground how to initiate) but i guess it only works in normal skill
I prefer the dps boost from treads especially since in higher mmr people tend to try to trade hits with you in the early game instead of running hence the pms and treads . Phase is fine I am sure I usually prefer higher dps build with Riki and reason I never build manta is because I prioritize abyssal blade and once I get abyssal game is over . 4th item is usually not relevant to games outcome but manta is one of the situational items I consider for the last three slots . I usually Am playing him as position occasionally position 3, if I am playing him position 3 I get an early ring of health and a quelling blade to assist with creep equilibrium denying and last hitting under tower .
Ms is for roam and is in general needed... but you dont have to yasha, always can wind lace
I used to build windlace but don't anymore due to having to sell it so early for slots , I may consider phase we'll see , its prob better in the early game but worse in the mid / lategame . Once you have diffussal don't really need the phase considering you have blink strike as well one thing I'll say is try to save your blink for when they force staff / use kinda mobility spell .
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do you think this way to play (pos 1 or 2, likely 2) riki is legitimate? or is it not worth trying to practice it? itemization in mind something like this game, just change aquila to linkens/butterfly/abyssal?
or maybe other itemization dunno
item progression like wraithband/roa-treads-diffusal-(dragonlance)-manta-(basher if sell wraith band)-skadi-(hurricanepike)
so why is daedalus not core on alch?