General DiscussionConcensus on Spectre item progression

1. no
2. yes
3. yes
4. no
5. no
6. no
7. yes
8. no
9. yes/no
10. yes/no

And so, standard cookie-cutter build=

(Excluding cheap items like QB, stout, pms, raindrops)

Phase Boots, Urn, Magic Wand, Aquila, Radiance, Manta, Diffusal, into Heart/Butterfly/BKB

Oh, and also lifesteal is t r a s h on her.

don't cut cookies :(

1. every match is different.

Manta and/or Diffusal is good for pretty much any agi right-clicker,though, lul. You can purge off anythuing, create illusions and these items are highly efficient agility-wise as well.

Let's look at your logic.

You said Urn + Aquila + Phase boots + Magic wand is core..

That is 4 item slots. you have a teleport scroll in 1 slot, maybe a stout / quelling blade in the other,

CONGRATS you are 6 slotted at 12 mins and you have like 4-5 early game items in your inventory.

Please don't assume you are badman and copy his build blindly because there is a "consensus"

sometimes you go up against 1 offlaner who is kind of annoying, sometimes u go up against no body, sometimes u go up against a tri lane, sometimes u go up against a dual lane, every match is gonna have IT'S OWN ITEMS THAT IT NEEDS YOU TO BUILD. :)

ring of aquila costs 1k gold, urn might be a bit TOO useless, enemies might be way too tanky for an urn to do shit, u think axe / timber / morphling / void are affected by ur urn too much? not unless they are escaping from a fight with low hp and low mana.. which is possible but not RELIABLE enough for you to DEPEND ON,

i dont know what spectre matches uve been a part of, but a spectre with an early vangaurd is actually very scary. WHY?

DAMAGE BLOCK + HIS PASSIVE that blocks 30% dmg.. = very hard to take damage,

spec gets agility cuz he is an agility hero, meaning HIGH armor, so HIGH hp = HIGH HP AND HIGH ARMOR > HARD TO KIL.

Just think about stuff..

A lot of spectre's damage comes from DISPERSION, that comes from you TANKING damage.

Spectre is a she, not a he you homosec

1) Urn is pretty much a must in pub games without a dedicated babysitter healing you all game.

I have built urn once on spectre in 65 matches. It's by no means core. Urn gives you hp regen IF you have kills for charge and a bit of mana regen. But both of those you can get elsewhere like...

2) Aquila's efficiency outclasses 6.87 Drums for the stats item slot.

Yes. I make aquila core and the mana regen means you don't need that component of urn.

3) Vanguard is only worth it when you're against those troll 4 right clicker teams with very low mid game damage.

Not true. The block is good vs towers, creeps, neutrals, even just 1 right clicker on enemy team like a slark or something. Plus hp regen, makes urn unnecessary. It's not core, but it's better than you think it is.

4) Phase Boots and Magic Wand is core in every game. You don't really want to be passive farming all game as Spectre.
Phase yes, magic wand no. Get wand if there's a lot of spammers in your lane like skywrath or bristle.

5) AC is only good on paper. Realistically you would want better 5k gold items in the long run.
I neither agree nor disagree.

6) Heart is miles better than Skadi if you happen to still feel like you depend on that 800 gold Urn in the 35th minute.
No. Skadi gives your illusions a lot more dmg, heart just makes you live longer. Heart is better with a radiance build but not miles better, skadi is better with diffusal build, but you can get both if you need to really tank. Like phase, radiance, diffusal, manta, heart, skadi is fine if you need to tank a shitload of magic dmg.

7) Dragon Lance...? Outclassed by Aquila probably.
Yes. I wouldn't go lance on spec.

8) Manta + Diffusal every game. This is your true core. You just happen to be getting Radiance a lot because of its obvious benefits. You
can skip Radiance.
I agree manta + diffusal is better in almost every way. Or as matric says, you will never lose a game by going manta diffusal over radiance, but you can definitely lose by rushing radiance. In other words when players go radiance and win games and droll all over it, they would've gotten the same result going manta diffusal and they ignore all the games they lost before purchasing relic.

9) If you do skip Radiance and go straight for Manta + Diffusal, the next big item should NOT be Radiance.
Not true, it can still be a really great item.

10) BKB should be considered more often.
If you mean it should be considered then yes, but I don't know what more is. I consider it almost every game, but a lot of players actually make bkb too core on heroes like sven and wk and blindly rush it.

Gr8 replies so far.

I personally cannot live with an Urn not because I'm Badman, but because I don't wanna be stuck running around the mid-game with half HP after 2 jungle camps / after a Haunt gank. I've tried lifesteal and was disappointed. Vanguard does solve this problem, but Urn is much cheaper.

Being 6-slotted by 12 minutes IS the goal! Is it not? Heck if i find myself having one item slot vacant I'll throw in a Raindrops in there. The goal is to be as much as a legittimate hero as possible before your big items, because again I don't feel like Spectre's skillset rewards a passive farming style. I dont mind selling a PMS or say, a Magic Wand by the time i get my Radiance / Manta.

Back to Vanguard- yes i realize how daunting a 6-minute Vanguard on the opposing Spectre can be, but then again in my opinion it forces you to play very passively in this clunky Vanguard-Radiance progression. Don't even mention Vanguard-Manta, tried it, didn't work. IMO, this item only truly stomps against teams who really can NOT kill you in the midgame. One death, and your game plan's pretty much screwed and you now 100% depend on your teammates to make space.

Lul and i guess no love for Power Treads and Drums anymore.

i thought you rather want drums than aquila

If you buy drums on agility carries in this version you should be executed.

How can you make a spectre thread without talking about blade mail LOL .

^ because blademail is trash on her

people who play farming spec and build blademail-sny by 30 mins "because theyre losing" should kill themselves

Well, to be fair Drums is still bought by Badman on every single one of his Spectre games.

Couldnt say i agree with him tho.

But then again he has 2x my mmr.

1. Urn is good. But not core. I used to make it a lot
2. Yes. Drums is shit. I didn't make it on spec back when it was considered good either
3. Vanguard has its benefits but I prefer poor mans shield rush, since I dont like vang upgrades on spec
4. Magic wand only when casters in lane. I never make phase; I'm a treads fan on spec. Str items synergize well with dispersion, and many a items switching to strength has saved my life in early game ganks. You get enough catch up from spectral dagger and diffusal blade
5. Yes, but it depends. AC is useful when u want armor but not through butter since enemy has true strike, or u want more pushing capability from - armor aura. But yes, better someone else makes AC. Spec should focus on stat items to benefit illusions.
6. No. Heart is good, but skadi can prove better in some cases, for example dealing with farmed right-click enemy carrys
7. If u really want a cheap early game str and mana item, try echo-sabre. (forgo RoA for it). Its not very good on spec, but dragon lance wud be worse
8. Not really. If u don't hav a terrible early game u can go radiance in 90% of cases. On Spec, u can even go diffusal rush and then make radiance. Spec makes use of radiance in ways other heroes don't, so u have a larger window of timing in her case. But yes, diffu-manta solid on spec
9. No. Read 8
10. BKB is very very situational and u want to avoid making it on spectre. A - u are an illusion based carry and so dont want ur enemies to find out the real you (which will be given off by bkb avatar) and B - u ult in team fights and go ham hit-and-run style, jumping from heroes to heroes and into and out of unpassable terrain with dagger shud the need arise, and then catching stragglers. No man-fighting

People who don't buy Urn on Spectre shouldn't be allowed to post on DB.

Urn on pubs are pretty much a must have imo
You don't want to afk farm with a team that doesn't give a shit about you,you want to be active WHILE farming,
I'd rather get drums than aquila,because people will buy aquila anyway,didn't like it on spec (doesnt give much tankiness,not much attack speed,no mobility,ok damage,less pushing power than drum,although very good on other agi)
Lifesteal is outclassed by raw hp
Skadi has more universal use rather than HoT,the enemy team isn't going to hit themselves to death by hitting a 3000 hp spectre without any slow or disable
Diffusal eats up slot imo if you're going for radi lategame build,but sometimes necessary against coordinated opponents/teammates or if the enemy is mana hungry and easily kiteable
I still have alot to learn, these are just my preferences on the hero,and it works quite well against scrubs

Also phase boots is better for afk farming radi rush because it gives mobility
PT is better for early game fights
Both are equally good imo but I usually make phase anyway

The reason i really prefer Heart over Skadi in the late game (if i wanted tankiness) is because it allows you to be independent from your Urn (again, considering you're currently in a team that requires you to get one.) It allows you to push high ground while receiving harrass. Something Spectre (a late game carry, for crying out loud) sucks otherwise.

Every game that i went Skadi hitting the T3 towers was just too much of a price to pay, since it won't take long for the enemy high-ground defense to chip away at your health.

Now, with no innate sustain (ala Juggernaut or Slark), no lifesteal from items, and no quick repositioning tool, it's easy to imagine how tough it would be to actually LEAD your team on that high ground push.

Heart allows you to keep your EHP at its fullest at all stages of the late game, with a simple engage-fall back -heal-reengage maneuver.

Also, I would've bought Butterfly, MKB, or Abyssal if I wanted to keep physical carries in check. Skadi just feels like a blob of stats in the lategame that doesn't synergize well with Spectre because the slow is pretty much wasted (and no, your illusions dont carry the orb effect.)

You forgot dagon.

1. Wait for a low hp enemy
2. Use haunt.
3. Dagon + Dagger the enemy.
4. TP out
5. ??????
6. Profit

Btw how do you use Refresher Orb by the time you get it as your 7th item?

Do you double haunt?
Or Haunt - die - Buyback - Haunt?

Is it ever worth getting RO as a 6th item instead? (With Radiance, of course) I imagine it would be neat if you happen to have BKB.

I think you actually get tp boots, use ur haunt, tp home, refresh and tp back, double haunt. Haunt illusions don't overlap IIRC so you wait until haunt 1 is done. Thing is you lose like 6 seconds doing this and that's if you're super fast clicker and swapping inventory so not always the best idea. More ideal would probably be open fight with haunt while still in base, refresh and tp to team, only lose like 3 seconds that way.

"Haunt illusions dont overlap" no shit sherlock.

Any ideas on itemizing against these specific enemy cores:

Alchemist , Juggernaut , Lifestealer , Slark

Considering it's the late game (post-Manta).

turn into a manfighter - satanic, butter, abyssal, mkb, skadi, eaten moonshard and boots

Im not gonna talk about every point, but I just dont thinkt he old Badman's build is worth it anymore.

When it was op spec had very little cd on ult and you could join fights all the time, so the urn + drums + phase build was excellent cuz it allowed you to fight and chase early, you can do this build but its not gonna work every game like it used to, then you used to build manta + diffusal because they are the most cost efficient items in terms of dps for spectre.

Nowadays I think vanguard is core on her again, given the interaction with dispersion + it gives more hp than the old drums + sustain (because u dont get urn now), you can still get urn but I rather get aquila for the flat mana regen + armor and more damage.
Phase or treads depends on how much time u plan to spend in the jungle or joining fights, getting treads really accelerates your progression from vanguard to radiance.

Not saying you should go vanguard + radiance every game, but most of the times.

Vanguard blows dicks, get echo

1) Urn if you're confident about getting kills. Ring of health is more reliable.

2) You don't buy drums for its stats. You buy it for MS. Phase + Drum + Yasha is a mobile build. The idea is to stack MS. On the other hand, you buy aquilla for cheap damage, mana regen and armor aura (to tank tower). So, why don't just buy both?

3) Vanguard allows you to farm a 4 stacked camps alone, farm ancients, survive through burst (250 hp) and sustain your hp until mid game (+8 hp regen). It stays relevant until late game to be built into abyssal blade.

4) Only if you can manage your slots. Boots + Wand + QB + TP. There are only 2 slots left.

5) AC is good against heavy physical damage dealer. The reworked dispersion gives you incentive you to build resistance againt incoming type of damage rather than bulk up raw hp.

6) Heart sustains better and tank up nuke better. Skadi mess up whole of enemies as your ulti (illussions) slow em down like kittens.

7) Both items serve different purpose. Again, you buy aquilla for cheap damage, mana regen and to tank up tower. Dragon lance, if you're bold enough to even build it on spectre, only gives mainly cheap stats. It will improve your hp and damage, yes. But it won't sustain your mana.

8) Manta + Diffusal are indeed cores on spectre.

9) But saying Radiance is meh item to get later is simply an ignorance. Check every Spectre player's dotabuff/ yasp on damage tab. Half of their output damage always comes from radiance.

10) Situational and depends on your playstyle. It takes up slots. BKB is not mainly about survival. It's mainly about not getting interrupted when you're finishing off your target. For example ursa and bristleback. The first one kills people by burst em down as fast as possible, thus obviously needs bkb not to get interrupted. The later kills people by kiting em while stacking spray damage over time, thus prefers to bulk up tankiness and mobility. Spectre has both abilities. Manta + desolate burst people down. Dispersion + radiance kill people slowly and the damage equals to how long you can survive during a teamfight.

"Alchemist , Juggernaut , Lifestealer , Slark"

Abyssal is very good vs all of those guys since 2 have magic immunity shit and slark has his ult and can pounce away. I'd still keep manta and diffsual most likely but something like butter, abyssal, diffusal2, manta, boots, skadi/heart.