General Discussion

General DiscussionHard carry questions

Hard carry questions in General Discussion
Hex Sigma

    This role has attracted me since i started doto. But i have some questions that really bother me regarding the hard carry class

    1. What does cs refer to? I know that cs means farmed creeps, but does it mean only last hits? or also denies? For example 6 cs means only 6 lh or 3 lh and 3 denies?

    2. When is a hand of midas considered good to pick? When you're freefarming? Or if you got screwed early can you go for a Midas and hope it pays off till late?

    3. If you got screwed early, and you have something like 40 lh by 10 mins, if your hero permits it can you go for a farming booster, in order to recuperate farm(maelstrom)? Or should you just straight up rush the cores?

    4. What cs/min is considered good to have as a hard carry? Is for example 5 ok?(ofc it depends on the situation, but generally speaking)

    5. If you fail teamfights, can you shift into a rat?

    6. If you are really good at farming, can you carry pubs even with heroes like anti mage or morph?

    7. When to farm ancients? Should the farm priority be lane>jungle>ancients?

    This topic was edited
    eXcel

      1. Just last hits

      2. Personal opinion, I hate 'catch-up' Midas's as they delay your item progression even further, but, some people like them. I'd consider it good on heroes with no flash farm potential and that benefit from attack speed (Morphling, as an example), but honestly I'd say it's very situational and generally avoid it.

      3. Mael/Mjol are core on a lot of heroes AND farm boosters, battlefury isn't so smart atm with the current meta, just consider shuffling your item pick up order so get a quicker farming item first.

      4. 5 is kind of minimum, but in long games this number can change, aim for 5/min after 20 mins so 100 at 20 mins. This is minimum, after that, if you're losing or winning hard this number will be skewed.

      5. On a real hard carry, no, only SOME hard carries can rat well (Morphling again), most of them excel at just killing other people, if you're losing the team fights late you've probably already lost the game to another hard carry.

      6. Yes.

      7. Depends on the hero you have, Luna can clear ancients so well, Anti-mage also, Morphling, PA (unless BF), and many others can not clear the Ancients (particularly stacked) so well. On the heroes that don't clear it so well I only really clear them as I pass through. But if you want some random priority order than yeah I'd say lane>jungle>ancients in most cases. Particularly if you're solo and the ancients aren't stacked. If you're clearing the jungle quick enough (so it's restacking as you're going as well!) then the farm is better than an Ancient stack.

      Oh Shit Waddup

        1) CS refers to last hits purely. depending on your display (not sure if its something you can change) but for me it is on the bottom righthand corner of HUD that you can see something saying LH:D and that tells you how many last hits and denies you have

        2) Hand of midas when you are getting free farm and can get it between 6-7 minutes, or when you are playing a hero who needs levels etc. personally i never go for a midas after 8 minutes but most the time if you get that fucked in lane that you cant farm that then its going to be a hard game. Check their carry and see if he is going for fighting items or farming items and that should tell you how you need to combat it, but you need to assess each point of time when youre both going to be effective and how confident you are with your ability to fight as said hero.

        3) in the context of pubs where it isnt guaranteed that your team will make space it is a bit risky but if you get get towers and clear waves with it go for it. if they have a heavy push rush your base kind of line up i would put it off and go for something so you can defend and see where the game goes from there

        4) Id say aim for 5 if you can, obviously you want to make as many as you can, but if you can get 5 per min by 10 minutes that is 50 which isnt too bad. just aim for as many as you can.

        5) depends on the hero and your map awareness skills but most hard carries give you some form of being able to push quick yes. if youre behind and they are pushing as 5 and you can see a trade go for it ( unless highground)

        6) yes but it depends on more than that. knowing how to use your farm is just as important as securing it.

        7) depends how quick you can clear it and your position on the map try and get team to stack ancients and clear it. you wont always be able to say ill go from lane to large to medium to large medium small and then ancients, it depends on how much your lanes are pushing, how much map control you have, whether you can see enemies on the map.

        King of Low Prio

          1. creep score and it only refers to last hits
          2. http://www.quora.com/Defense-of-the-Ancients-DotA/Item-Analysis-How-long-before-a-Hand-of-Midas-reclaims-its-own-cost-and-starts-giving-bonus-gold

          too many situations with midas to give you a solid answer, if you want a tip I would suggest testing it and seeing where and when you can get away with it (trial and error)

          3. pubs favor greed

          4. Just focus on not missing last hits rather than focusing on a static number

          5. depends on your hero and items

          6. pretty hard to carry pubs as the safe lane carry(your teammates need to create the space for you), if you want to play the hard carry in the mid lane you will have more game presence.

          7. depends on hero, map vision and opponents.

          My best suggestion is to just play and learn, you will suck at first but that is just part of the process.

          Zahard

            1. last hits
            2. if you are a good passive player and know how to play passively midas is always a good pick. tho you need a good defensive line up (mb a tinker or some shit, something that makes entering highground a bitch). the 5-6 min only midas is complete bullshit. i get midas at 18 mins and still win.
            3. depends on hero and situation. maelstrom usually does the job, but that is anyways a core on most carries
            4. 7, but it depends on heroes. naga can easily go for 15 cs/min
            5. if you have an escape mechanism (morph/am etc) yes.
            6. yes.
            7. doesn't really matter as long as you farm. its hero dependant and it's ability to farm certain camps/lanes (see luna/tinker)

            Julien

              I hate conventional hard carries like Luna, AM etc.
              I prefer semi-carries like Razor and Ember for the safelane.

              Whatever

                ^Apparently you really like lycan too...

                Julien

                  Just wanted to practice him, strong pick.

                  MaTT

                    In my mind the strongest carry at my level(+-3.5k) is Sven. Comes online early and carries ultra hard Late game.
                    The average pub does not allow you to farm for the first half of the game.

                    Z__

                      2. In most cases, you will get more farm buying items to farm faster rather than going for a midas, hence I like it only on heroes who will take advantage of a higher level or if I'm stuck with a semi carry and I have to go toe to toe against a hard carry (e.g. slark safelane vs enemy am).
                      4. As a carry with free farm you should miss very few last hits during laning stage, I'd say between 65-75 at 10 mins mark (uncontested farm). However, in our potato bracket if you manage to get 50 last hits at the 10 mins mark in a 2v2 lane, you probably won the game, because most people here can't even get 30 last hits if the lane is somewhat contested. Learn to control the creepwave and buy a quelling blade if necessary in order to secure all the last hits you can.
                      5. You should always be ratting if you have carry with an escape. Putting pressure on enemy towers is an effective way to [indirectly] contribute to your team. You force the enemy team defend their tower, making space for your team to farm other lanes.
                      6. Yes, you can as long as you have a gold advantage over the enemy carry. Sometimes you end up with A LOT of farm and then you realize that the enemy carry has even more because he's 15-0 thanks to a feeding teammate.
                      7. Ancients are far away from farming routes. Go for them if you are nearby but don't deviate your farming route for them unless they're stacked and you have a hero than can clear the camp fast (bfury am/luna).

                      Hex Sigma

                        Here, I came up with another one: if you die a lot early is there a way to be relevant later? or you're just another burden? take for example my luna game or wk game

                        This comment was edited
                        epsik-kun

                          Yes, if you'll find your farm and team will create some space. No, if you don't. Given equal skill, usually, if you die a lot early - enemy has better early game, hence worse late game.

                          MaTT

                            That's what I love about Sven, you can farm the jungle and lane really quickly with MoM and Cleave.
                            Made some really nice comebacks because of that

                            Hex Sigma

                              thnx for suggestion fancy, I'll try sven.

                              MaTT

                                Sven is really good at our bracket/level. I play him safe or off lane and it works well. Blink on him is fun, though I don't get it often. Normally I rush my core items as quickly as I can so I can have a big impact.
                                Once you have bkb you are ready to team fight, that's when I ask the team to 5 man and push. Once you ulti up the enemy team either fights and dies or they run in which case you take towers.
                                The only heroes that annoy me as Sven is Razor and Ursa, but with your built in cleave it is easy to outfarm them

                                Sven is my rampage/ultra kill hero, once you have crit items you can team wipe in seconds.

                                Had 2 abandons, eventually their team started leaving
                                http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/842189099

                                Intentional feeder, courier feeder and Item stealer:
                                http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/705866551

                                Quick maffs

                                  I seriously hate sven as a carry, gets kited so easily, even with a blink.

                                  In my opinion if you just want a good safe lane carry to pubstomp pick luna or lycan

                                  Quick maffs

                                    mmm i found sven so weak without a blink

                                    but if it works for you man great !

                                    Quick maffs

                                      btw about mids, i get midas when i know i am not going to be able to farm well or when i am playing a hero that doesnt need any item of 2k cost

                                      For example from time to time i get midas on windrunner when i am offlaning

                                      Trodlabundin

                                        There's always things you can do, however how much you think you can do comes with experience.

                                        If you're e.g. Phantom Assassin or Anti-Mage and get heavily pressured in earlygame and dies a lot of times, you need to accept you're too far behind and go for cheap items to stay rellevant for your team.

                                        Examples of cheap-easy-to-buy-items:
                                        -Vladimir's Offering
                                        -Drums
                                        -Sange and Yasha
                                        -Urns

                                        These are probably items to consider if your earlygame went total trash.

                                        Let's say you're Centaur, and your earlygame went horrible, or you feel your team is kinda stuck and you can't really contribute a lot around the map.

                                        You can:

                                        [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/BLjA7e6.jpg[/IMG]

                                        Create space.
                                        Cut waves.
                                        Force teleports.

                                        If you die for a 3man teleport, you've created a lot of space.
                                        If you cut a wave, and enemy also teleport and you survive, you've created space.

                                        When/if you die, just think if you actually accomplished something with that death.
                                        I'm not saying you should move around dying on purpose to "create space", but if you're decent enough you get the idea.

                                        If you die stupidly, and you realize it, you should probably start watching replays of yourself.

                                        Quick maffs

                                          Splitpush man its the best thing in dota

                                          When i play with my friend and he wants to fight i am like " no fuck it lets push this lane get gold and get out "

                                          Dire Wolf

                                            I think the min cs by ten minutes thing is really overblown and coming from highly skilled players. I don't know your bracket but almost no one in mine manages 7 cs a min. I get that much in really good games but an average, solid win is like 6 and I almost never have more than 50 at 10 mins. The reason is partly my ineptitude at last hitting but also because your supports in 3k bracket suck donkey nuts. They will NEVER harass enemies out of lane or make space for you. Good luck if you are a void or spectre going up against two ranged heroes intent on denying. If they are both denying a lot of those last hits are a coin flip. Or maybe their lane in stronger than yours with a couple disablers who can blow you up at a moments notice. You are really relying on your support to protect you so you can last hit in that case and usually the protection is less than desired. I'm sure a great player could overcome this but for average folks like me it's rough.

                                            Focus on gpm. 600 gpm is a great number to shoot for. 500-600 will usually get the job done as long as no one feeds like crazy but 600 is almost always a win as a carry. Who cares if you get it from cs or kills or assists or not dying? 450 is where it starts getting iffy and you will depend a lot on your teammates.

                                            Dire Wolf

                                              Here is exactly what I mean

                                              http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/854737993

                                              Invoker, 680 gpm, less than 3 cs a min cus he was fighting the entire time, went 13/1/8. I did a little more farming on sniper, a little over 5 cs a min, 670 gpm, 6/1/12. Mid was virtually uncontested and I made just about every last hit there in the first 10 minutes. But then I pushed out some lanes, did some teamfights and had to tp back to base to heal, run back out to lane. I was active the entire time. We got a ton of gold off towers and a lot of heroes.

                                              My point is it's very difficult to get more than 5 cs a min unless you are a hero built for farming like an anti mage or terror blade, or the game goes ~45 mins to the point where you clear waves in a few seconds.

                                              Fay

                                                Shame on me, but i don't know how to play this role.
                                                I found this role is very hard or i just unconsciously not performing best when i played this role
                                                I also don't know how to fix my faceless void gameplay
                                                If anyone kindly checked my matches with faceless
                                                http://www.dotabuff.com/players/50242242/matches?date=&faction=&hero=faceless-void&lobby_type=&game_mode=&region=&duration=

                                                My favourite lane is offlane.
                                                Almost every ranked game i go offlane and from the statistic i could achieve positive winrate in ranked just because of this.
                                                But last week i tried to go safelane with picking carry/safelane support, the result was bad because my winrate somehow decreased a lot and i lost 500 MMR because of this.

                                                I've downloaded some of TI4 offlane void game, and I'm going to try it later on if i have time to play.
                                                What do you think of Faceless void offlane?

                                                This comment was edited
                                                Dire Wolf

                                                  I wouldn't do it in a public match. When you pick void your team is expecting you to hard carry. when you offlane you are going for an early level 6 and then depending on your teammates to team fight with you and supply dmg while you ult to get an early advantage. You aren't really a hard carry at that point. Unless your whole team is on board with this plan it probably won't go so well.