General Discussion

General Discussionnew bloodseeker

new bloodseeker in General Discussion
Grimm

    https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/5518183316

    why he fuck has this hero 35% wr ?
    The farm you can get and the damage you dish out is stupid

    Shou

      because he sucks

      why would u even go deso ur hero only amps spell damage now.

      This comment was edited
      Where is my Hu Tao

        people just play it wrong. Hero needs to farm. You can farm faster than anyone in the game. Get a good timing on core items and no one can contest you.

        Dogwater

          Yeah true he is a fast farmer, just prepare for all the toxic bloodseekers spamming q on their teammates because they want them to die.

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            @shoukyaku, did you completely miss the part where Q gives you 50/80/110/140 attack speed?

            Grimm

              i have the same amount of lh as my am you went farming for 22min until he gets manta style.
              You don't need the enemy to be low anymore to attack fast with boost your farm so fucking much.
              I suspect the hero will naturally gain wr soon, and maybe get busted with some buffs

              CHAD THUNDERCOCK

                bc noobs dont know how to think and anytime a new patch comes people don't adapt they keep trying the same shit and when it doesn't work they complain the hero sucks

                Pwny

                  @AD.GokU @ruin You both failed to take note that they nerfed just about all of his abilities and made it so his new Q comes at the insane cost of a 3% total hp drain for 8 whole seconds.

                  30% damage amp is gone and you creep heal dropped to 15% from 25% making his laning stage much harder. Cleaning up is also worse now due to the amp removal.

                  Support BS is worse since spell damage amp is now only 24%. It was previously 30% and didn't come with the drawback of draining a quarter of your target's life with each cast. You also can't break linkens with Q.

                  The only thing this BS rework has potentially going for it is flash farming (which will only work if you have really good sustain thanks to the horrid Q change) which will not work out based on BS's kit not supporting that style of play.

                  Hero is dead this patch, wait for the buff next patch or two.

                  Totentanz to The King: M ...

                    1 game samplesize, truly all other arguments are void now

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                      @pwny,
                      The hero is changed, your playstyle has to change.
                      The wr is low cause players still play bs the old way. Getting moonshard+kaya at level 7 for 24% total hp cost, while having a passive spell that heals you for every unit that dies in 300 radius around you. That's just plain broken.
                      For every point in thirst, you get the following heal per meele creep dying in 300 radius.
                      6%/9%/12%/15% ==> 33/49.5/66/82.5.
                      You don't have to rely on bloodrage for laning. Which results in enemies not have huge sticks during laning stage.
                      You can get just any basic item and clear nc faster than any other hero now in early game. Even a wraith band or just early phase boots are amplfied so much by that atk speed.

                      Pwny

                        @AD.GokU Again, laning is far worse which BS is heavily reliant due to the creep heal nerf and lack of a damage amp used to secure last hits needed to keep you in lane. Claiming that a reduced heal at 50% for each missed creep is overpowered just dumb. You should be missing very few last hits as a decent BS.

                        Having it tied to thirst and always be up is a nice quality of life and is one of his few buffs with the rework, it's not particularly noteworthy during this phase because every BS already made the adaption to level Thirst over bloodrage and no BS worth his salt was securing last hits without bloodrage up (Which cost 0 mana before).

                        You are also insane if you don't think that you will need to spend around 2k to sustain your new Q.

                        ๖ۣۜ Daito༻

                          We can just skip Q completely during lane stage or hold skill point (like medusa's split shot, luna's glaives, sven's cleave), max W and E, so we get pure dmg harass + insane movespeed like before + you're always get your heal. Even in hard lane. You should just agro creep to 300 radius and get your free 33/49/66/82 heal, that's nuts.
                          Also:
                          mom + drums / blademail on bs, change my mind.

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                            @pwny,
                            Well, this just reminds me of "Dispersion doesn't block damage debate I had with a confident ignorant player".

                            I gave you numbers, calculations, for my explanation. and you just repeated the same thing in your first comment.
                            Your whole explanation is just same sentence repeated 3 times by twisting words.

                            "It's just bad because I'm saying that."- that's what you sound like.

                            "you will need to spend around 2k to sustain your new Q." - blank statement.

                            "no BS worth his salt was securing last hits without bloodrage up (Which cost 0 mana before)."
                            - 0 mana cost doesn't mean enemy won't get stick charges for it.
                            Let me make the explanation more simple for you.
                            You HAD to use bloodrage to sustain in lane while taking lh. This primarily has 2 flaws, which low mmr don't care, but are abused in high mmr.(yes I watch guides)
                            1) You give enemy free stick charges.(any person with above 60Iq always buys stick when laning against bs)
                            2) When you bloodrage, you announce to the enemy that you are going to lh. In that time if your position is even a little bit bad you get harassed, and if the enemy forces you to miss that lh, that means you just got harassed for free.

                            With the reworks, I wouldn't use bloodrage to take lh. The major aspect of bloodrage that helped with laning was the heal which is moved to thirst and it is made much better.
                            Right now, bloodrage is a offensive spell for farming as well as ganking.
                            Before you ruptured someone, they are half hp, they just tp away in front of you cause you don't have atk speed.
                            With current Bloodrage you get minimum +50 atk speed at level 7 (if you maxed thirst, and kept 1 value point in other 2 spells.)
                            Right now early max bloodrage is valuable too. Before, the basher was useless as a early pick up as the hero didn't have inherent atk speed without thrist buff. This changes just made his scaling much better than before. Physical Builds other than radiance are no longer "compromise" builds.

                            Just a direct comparison.
                            1) Old bloodrage- Dmg amp(12-30%) + heal(10-25%).
                            2) New bloodrage- AS(50-170) + spell amp(6-24%).

                            P.s.- I'm expecting the 12 yr old response. "But you are wrong cause I'm right". Don't disappoint me xD

                            Pwny

                              @AD.Goko I am disapointed you have resorted to bad faith arguments.

                              The glaring problem with your arguement is that it hinges entirely on the idea that getting 2 low hp hero worth of attack speed at the cost of 24% hp removal and the lose of a 30% damage amp.

                              Your argument about having to use bloodrage in lane to sustain (Giving the enemy a chance to burst you down if you are dumb and give the enemy a free stick charge) is good but that too comes at a heavy trade off since creep healing is nerfed, global amp used for securing last hits is gone, you can't offer allies any sustain and you lost the ability to use it on enemies (which comes at the heavy cost of losing the ability to easily break linkens).

                              This rework has caused a major shift in how BS wants to itemize and approach team fights. The problem is that it just isn't working in practice with how it's implemented right now. That of course can change with a few adjustments with this seemingly incomplete rework.

                              I will say that one of the few things you are correct in isbstating that basher is highly valued on BS now with this rework, but the problem is that a good number of proven players have already adepted to his new playstyle and itemization but they are still performing poorly and will continue to till the cost of Q is reduced and his laning stage is improved.

                              This comment was edited
                              HeyDota

                                Based on 3 matches played with bs after patch i feel its buffed like hell. At lv 4 i can start farming small camp in addition to mid lane. with 1-1-2 skills. Very early pt + wraith + mjolnir enable farming entire jungle an being lv 10 before any other lane becomes 6. I was flamed for not ganking lanes but didnt give a shit and i was capable of pushing hg before 25. Even with 0 8 support on my team and free farming alch on their team it felt like i was playing against easy bots.
                                Honestly either you didnt tried the hero after patch or playing it completely wrong because it is much stronger than it was before. It farms faster, it carries items better (7/24 extra attack speed) and requires less items. It feels weaker when naked, but it feels stronger when fat and it gets fat 5x easier.

                                HeyDota

                                  And it just got buffed again xD Clinkz nerfed a bit but i dont think it would change much.

                                  Pwny

                                    7.27c is out. As I expected they reduced the cost of bloodrage and they buffed the creep heal. they also buffed blood rite and gave him much needed lifesteal talent at level 15. I think BS is pickable now.

                                    Pwny

                                      Patch definitely fixed some of my complaints with the reworked BS. Winrate jumped from 41% to 46% and will probably jump up to 48-50% once more people adept. He is more rigid now and weaker early on but he will be more of a threat late game due to faster farming. Probably still needs a few more buffs to be competitive with other carries.

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                                        @pwny,
                                        Well it's not fun when you give explanation and the one opposing just says "you are wrong" without backing up their argument.

                                        "2 low hp hero worth of attack speed at the cost of 24% hp removal and the lose of a 30% damage amp"
                                        The difference is, getting 2 low hp heroes worth of atk speed when I want. The fact that you can rinse through one side of jungle in less than 2 mins with only a wraith band and boots is so much value.

                                        I agree on the linkens and ally sustain part.

                                        As for the wr, it's pretty common after a drastic change in hero mechanics(more so when the changes result in high self hp removal). High mmr players adjust pretty quickly, low mmr players are still spamming Q in lane and blaming the patch. Some players saw this as a new 0 min jungle hero, and ruined games.

                                        The wr right now is almost 50%(If I take your comment as a reference, in 2 hrs the wr went up by 4%). Once the players start adapting to changes, the win rate will probably go up by a lot and the hero will probably be queued for nerf. If I were to guess, they'd mostly reduce the bonus AS in later patches or the healing to only be lh based(imagine you are low hp and disabled in team fight at 10 mins and getting 300 hp heal just cause your allies killed a hero next to you).

                                        Pwny

                                          @AD.Goku It's 46% right now and on a upward trend. A few really good players have expressed interest in using him at a very high level and this quickfix patch did do a good job at addressing why he fell apart. We should get a much better idea where he stands in two weeks or so.

                                          One thing that is obvious is he better at the late game and is more dependent on farm. right now most players. His goto items seem to be vlads/MoM, mjoll, abyssal and bkb.

                                          miiigz

                                            He had huge mana issues before 7.27c, unlike any other hero. I had a clarity buff almost 100% of the time last two turbo games and couldn't keep up with mana usage. Even bought echo sabre both games.

                                            Shou

                                              If it’s broken then go figure out the new build and playstyle urself and show us, all I have to see is like 1 game where I stomped a blood seeker and this shitty 1 game with a blood seeker who has deso daedalus. Says nothing. U know what says a lot? 35% win rate. It’s not just like, “oh this hero’s worse”, it’s “this hero lost 14% I repeat FOURTEEN PERCENT, win rate, smth is horribly wrong.” I don’t think any amt of “figuring out the build” will save bs from needing buffs and maybe a slight rework. I mean even on paper the skills suck, looking at blood rage I think bloodlust is better, press the attack is better, strafe is better, and thirst feels awful. The only redemption I see is that bloodrite is still an absolutely bonkers lvl 1 spell it’s 70 mana for 120 pure damage aoe nuke which is absurdly value. That and the fact that u can farm on the hero, but what the fuck is the point of farming when you don’t do it as good or make as good use of it as a naga or terrorblade who were both buffed.

                                              This comment was edited
                                              Ad.Goku™(tv/adgoku24)

                                                ohh, a hero that went through a drastic change, which majorly affected how you sustain in lane on that hero, lost 14% on over all winrate. hmm, makes you think.
                                                How many heroes have had a ability changed which was completely opposite of it's original mechanic??
                                                I played against Bs after the patch, and 100% of games, player played as if bloodrage was not changed.
                                                Level 1 - bloodrage, spamming in lane and killing themselves over and over. This is in 3k bracket.
                                                Did you notice the pick rate spike along with the win rate spike when it reached it's lowest point?
                                                "something is horribly wrong" - What's wrong is we have too many braindead players, who forget the "strategy" part of the game.
                                                The only thing they know is Farm, Farm, Farm and if they lose then blame, blame, blame.
                                                It's been so long since the patch and you still see bloodseekers taking bloodrage level 1 and feeding in lane not knowing that bloodrage doesn't give heal anymore. So yes, that 14% wr loss is not at all shocking, when you have 90% of player base that doesn't know how to read.

                                                CEO_Mrb

                                                  Bacot ngentot.. BS is OP now, no need to argue, just change ur playstyle

                                                  Tu tayta

                                                    Daily reminder that people just generally suck at adapting to something new and have to wait until someone else does it for them.

                                                    I remember back when Void was reworked and his second skill affected heroes regardless of whether they had cast a spell or not and he sported a magnificent 40% winrate and people of course cried that he was sent to the shitter.

                                                    Dota psychologist

                                                      It took a week for people to realize new OD can just buy Aghs lens, astral people from 5k range and 1 shot anything without 3k mana so its possible Seeker will be a good hero or even broken if he gets buffed more and all the mouth breathers figure him out.

                                                      Grimm

                                                        I played a few more games with the hero and i'm impressed.
                                                        The hero can carry really well, abd fit quite well in the games that goes longer

                                                        kowareta

                                                          39% winrate
                                                          POG

                                                          '96 Neve Campbell

                                                            The hero is fucking garbage though. It doesnt matter if you are farmed as fuck cause most carries do more than shitseeker with half the farm...

                                                            kowareta

                                                              ^
                                                              can you play him once then start talking about him? like i mainly played blood before and still i dont feel im eligible to put a comment on him :/

                                                              '96 Neve Campbell

                                                                I have seen it ingame and I have seen it in videos, its obvious how underwhelming the hero is.

                                                                ETd

                                                                  Played him just now, midlane against a Morphling. https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/5528049940
                                                                  He felt really fine. His laning feels more self-sufficient, rather than relying on other lanes to trade so that you get your attack speed for DPS. You just whack creeps, even if they deny you'll get half of the HP% value. (Note: I didn't even skill Q until lvl 9) Moreover, the HP% per second loss isn't as bad as I thought it would be. Just rushed a blade mail, got radiance, and I didn't even notice the life loss, just farming along. The attack speed is pretty nuts at max level, I can definitely see mjollnir builds working.
                                                                  I think people just need a period to re-adjust. For example, I gave up a few kills trying to gank without my Q, underestimating how much I need that attack speed.

                                                                  ETd

                                                                    Several things I'm not a fan of with the rework:
                                                                    no more linken's breaker
                                                                    can't heal allies anymore(not that many BS players would do so unless their teammates screamed at them to give them old bloodrage)
                                                                    mana issues(at least with my skill build, putting more into the silence)

                                                                    But yeah, I don't mind the rework too much, especially since I play bloodseeker mid. It fits perfectly, since I like to play heroes that don't have to ship out additional regen (Necrophos, Bloodseeker, Dragon Knight)

                                                                    Shou

                                                                      im sure his winrate will rise when people figure him out more but i really doubt he will recover all 14 points of lost winrate just by figuring it out, many heroes get reworked and dont lose that much winrate, its pretty significant.

                                                                      StaRBerry

                                                                        MKB is my new best friend on BS.

                                                                        Self-explanatory if you have even half of a functional brain.

                                                                        Ad.Goku™(tv/adgoku24)

                                                                          Any hero that has it's ability changed from giving massive heals to massive self damage will have low win rate for long time regardless of how good that hero is and there's a pretty simple reason to that. More than half the population of dota don't know how to comprehend stuff.

                                                                          Most player don't even know to read the skill description, adjusting gameplay around that is a totally different topic.

                                                                          Spectre is in the game for 9 years now, still players with 3k+ hours think that dispersion doesn't block damage.
                                                                          Divine rapier got true strike in 7.23, still legend and ancient players have flamed me 4 major patches later for making divine without mkb -"Divine is useless if you miss all your hits".
                                                                          This are your average D2 players.

                                                                          Shou

                                                                            perhaps, but still, i mean i totally agree that he is played wrong but i still dont think he will recover all his lost points, but thats just my opinion.

                                                                            ETd

                                                                              ^Oh, definitely. The fact that he needs more than 2 brain cells to play now will screw up his pubstomp nature among lower skill bracket players.

                                                                              Misa

                                                                                max Q and cast it on your teammates , you will get positive feedback.

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                                                                                ETd

                                                                                  Oh, definitely. The fact that he needs more than 2 brain cells to play now will screw up his pubstomp nature among lower skill bracket players.

                                                                                  I'm dumb btw... Assuming the BS player isn't greedy and puts too much into Q, you just max thirst and fall asleep in lane
                                                                                  If they could add the ability to heal up from denying allied creeps I'd appreciate that