General Discussion

General Discussion1st Pick Supporting Advise/Insight

1st Pick Supporting Advise/Insight in General Discussion
Joe Pio

    So this is a dilemma I feel like happens to me and im sure other supports too. Roughly 25-40% of the time in All Pick I run into this issue.

    No one wants to be countered(understandable), so during the draft phase naturally everyone wants the support to pick first and let the time run.

    So for strategy sake I first pick a support cause I don't mind being the one countered. So ill go with cm, venge, jak etc.
    Now the issue is you have no control over what the rest of the team picks.
    Most people dont want to support so you end up playing pos 5 with a greedy roamer/jungler.

    Which is fine but now I feel stretched, If I am supporting my carry then eventually vison lacks on opposite side of the map and or mid over runes. Especially around the 6-7min mark.

    So most of the time if I leave my HC he loses farm and gets smooshed then reports me for not supporting him.
    If I stay then mid and offlaner report me cause im not warding the map.
    Also if I go ward im usually a target and cause im stretched im usually walking into opponent superior vison and have high chance of being ganked.

    I can buy wards and ask them to place it themselves but theres no guarentee they will.
    What ive found works best is to just buy everything if they wont, then save tps for rotations then as I rotate I ward.
    So majority of the time I just have to make a call and let the chips fall where they may.

    Thoughts? Suggestions?
    Just curious if someone has a new perspective on this cause I have 5000+ hours in dota and this problem is consistent and I feel like my mmr is at the mercy of other people because not only do I not control the team comp but getting reported over this lowers the mmr too.

    Tribo

      Thoughts? Suggestions?

      carry yourself
      by not playing support in 2.5k mmr

      This comment was edited
      aasdf

        ^true af

        Suzie from the Jacuzzi

          wrong

          i climbed from 2.3k to 3.2k and i only played support

          Tonitrus

            First pick jugg all the time since he have no real counters

            mynhauzen

              As pos 5 - give 2 tangos and a ward to mid. If mid is ganked - tp once. If he dies - tp mid and get xp. Stack on your way back. Stack 2-3 times before 10 minutes (try to do double stacks to show more work). Get runes. Reward mid at 5 minutes when ganking. Ignore offlane unless its losing 0 3. If it does - tp - deward - gank, and go help safe lane - stacking on your way back. Think how much time you can spend in those lanes. Ask pos 4 to help at 10 minutes with wards and get your first cheap item by 10-15 minutes. Ward everything after - continue to stack. Give clarities to your carries if required. By 25th minute - get another team related item, and ward heavily for 10-15 minutes. Deward everything. Always buy dust. Always stack. If you don't get 2+ commends after this, report all 4 people and move on.

              Harold

                If you want to get out from that hell dont play pos5 as other Archons want you to play, watch high MMR replays and play it like that. Also dont pick supports like CM, Venge Jakiro on low MMR or you will have double digits deaths every game. You think they are good becuase they have stun? Wrong, until your teammate registers that you have stuned the target, its over and enemy is bashing you to death.

                Pick sustain supports that have intergrated teamfight, Warlock, Shadowshaman, Treant is questionable but its ok pick, he requires a bit more powerspike awareness than warlock and SS.

                Joe Pio

                  Lol people care so much about kdr in this game that its just silly. Like if im a support and i can zone for my hc then trade my life to the offlaner and my hc gets the kill on the offlaner, then proceeds to freefarm while offlaner gone thats a pretty clear win to me. My goal is to have 0 kills at the end of every game. I will gladly take a kill if its there but ive gone like 0/20/32 all the time and its a pretty clear win.
                  Then everyone gets in chat and says oh look you went 0/20 feeder lol. Game cracks me up sometimes

                  Julioioioio̸͔͛h̴͇̀h̶̰͑h̸̆...

                    Try to synergize with your cores. I know it can be hard cuz not everyone sticks with the carry they hover over and you're picking first. Its def better if you pick jak when you're with a void, or picking venge when you have drow/pa.

                    Also, you gotta work on your k/d/a. Dying for your carry is great if your carry gets a gold advantage, but needlessly dying only hurts you. Mobility is super important in dota. Being able to reposition yourself in a fight, or getting away from a gank is huge for a support. Consider getting blink and/or force on supports.

                    You can't be a good support while you're dead.

                    Saucy Edwin

                      Well, he can't really synergize with his core if he has to first pick, so I don't really agree with you there Soyboy.

                      Secondly, KDA really means nothing on supports. What IS important is how many deaths you have. Now sometimes, the enemy might have highly mobile cores that just run you down and kill you ever fight, but that's more the exception than the rule. In those games, you will probably have a lot of deaths. However, the amount of deaths you have in a game can really show some problems you may have, such as bad positioning, or poor item choices. This is even more apparent when looking at the amount of deaths you've had in recent games. There is only one game in the past 10 support games where you have less than ten deaths, even when you win super easily. I recommend watching pro replays, then checking your own replays so you can see how to improve that, because positioning is literally EVERYTHING on supports.

                      Next, I want to go back to the topic of itemization, which is something that SO MANY people have issues with. I only saw 2 glimmer capes in those 10 support games I looked at, and they were both on CM. IMO, people value Aghs, BKB's, Kayas, and other items like that on supports. While they CAN have their place in some situations, I would much rather have a Warlock who has force and glimmer, as well as dust and other support items, then one who rushes an Aghs. The whole reasoning behind this is that force and glimmer are so freaking versatile, you can use them to save others, save yourself, get into better positioning, delay a core's death so that the enemies clump together, like there are so many possibilities. On the other hand, you could spend basically the same amount of gold on Aghs, and all that does is improve Warlock's already insane teamfight potential, and the Aghs is only actually really useful in situations where you basically hit everyone with a fatal bonds, ult, upheaval combo (which is INCREDIBLY unlikely in anything above like archon), or if you win the fight and need the extra push from another golem. So my suggestion would be to see what's killing you the most in a game, whether that be an Ursa's slow, or a fed Riki, and itemize specifically for that, because you would rather be able to get you're whole arsenal of spells of and waste the cores' time while they attempt to kill you then to hope that they don't focus you long enough for you to get a 3 or 4 man ult off.

                      What I'm also noticing in terms of itemization is that you basically go for the same items every game for each hero, which is not a good idea, considering every single game of Dota has different challenges and situations that you need to overcome.

                      This one is much more meta based, but currently, the best way to play is to really just sit in a dual lane and outharass the opponents. The main reason I'm bringing it up is because I noticed a few of your games, you had either a trilane, or you roamed. Trilanes can be fine depending on matchups and what cores you have, but roaming is pretty fucking dead because of how little gold and exp you get nowadays.

                      Now this is getting really long, so I'm going to wrap this up with a few random things I noticed that I think you should be aware of.

                      1. Probably don't skill the W first on CM most games, because the whole reason she's meta RN is that her Crystal Nova deals so much damage for so little mana, and can hit multiple people, which is what you want when you're trying to out damage the enemy offlane. Purge has made a video on this topic if you're at all interested.

                      2. Don't think that you ALWAYS have to die for your carry, especially if you still have your ult. I'd much rather have a Warlock ult for this upcoming push then to have that same Warlock trade his life for another kill after my team has already killed 2 people.

                      3. Despite what many, MANY people say, it is totally possible to get out of bad MMRs by playing support. I know from experience, because I went from 2k to my current 3.6ish (last season, I'm lazy and haven't placed yet lol) by only playing support.

                      4. I don't know what your personality is like, but I know that I've started trying to be much more positive in my games, and it's actually helped me win so may games that feel lost its unreal. It only takes one mistake on the enemies' part to throw a game, and you and your team are much more likely to punish that mistake if you're not as tilted, and you can play more games and actually enjoy them a lot more if you are more positive.

                      And that's about all I've got. So good luck on the grind, and if you're really committed to improving, you will eventually raise in rank and stuff.

                      Sincerely, an Ancient player who would probably be a bit higher if he actually played ranked, but feels like he knows what he's talking about.

                      Saucy Edwin

                        Also if you have any other questions, feel free to add me to ask.

                        < blank >

                          Hello friend, i noticed you from my 17,205 Gold spent on support items thread..
                          Forget everything anyone has told you in this thread about picking cores, play your best role and the role you find most enjoyable, I actually find playing pos 5 to be quite an 'easy' role to win games with, because you can 'captain' easily and control vision.. which in turn will setup for objectives.

                          I am far from the best position 5 player around (much better pos 4 player if supporting), however i know what i expect from my pos 5.

                          Start every single game the same way, regardless of what position 5 hero you're picking. (Double Tango, Double clarity, 2x Obs ward, 1x sentry) - You will pool your mid 1 ward/double tango and you will decide if you need your obs for top or offlane depending on heros. eg. If they have some rhasta/jug lane which is quite popular in the archon level, you might want to give your ward to your offlaner, just use your brain a little.

                          If you are feeding, prioritise wards over boots.. It sounds rediculous, 'i need boots to stop feeding the enchantress' isn't a bad mindset, however if you really think about it, boots won't help you survive as a maiden against some ench throwing 300 damage spears at you, Wards however might do that.

                          Stack camps - This should be a no brainer, if you're a hero that can stack multiple camps/farm them.. eg. Venge will auto attack one camp and use wave of terror on 1/2 other camps.. you can also wave camps from incredible distances. Do that (shadow demon can theoretically stack all 6 dire jungle camps every rotation PogChamp, However stick to 1 or 2 for basics)
                          If you can farm stacks, do it, (Maiden ulti, macropire etc) if not.. wait for your luna to get her mom and clear it. The faster you get the stacks clear'd the more levels you have, the more gold you have to spend on support items.
                          Sometimes stacking can be game losing (you have an antimage, they have a shadowfiend etc, just be mindful)

                          Ward based on objectives, and/or enemy powerspikes -eg. if its 7mins into the game and they have a lvl 5 nyx assassin soon to be level 6. I will make sure i have a sentry ward in mid/safelane.. if nyx is off the map, i'll tell my offlane to be careful.
                          I will voice that i have to baby sit my lane (eg. i'm a bootsless warlock healing my spectre non stop) I'll give wards to the position 4 to go place or i'll put an ob in the courier and physically drop it into my mids inventory.

                          Warding based on objectives is quite simple, 'we want to take over X section of the map, lets get some wards there'. 'we want to be able to farm in X area, lets get some wards near there'. 'our next objective is to take X tower, lets get some wards near there'. 'We want to defend X area, lets get some wards near there' See the pattern?.

                          If you look at any high level support (VP.Solo is probably the best example) at the 11:40 (just before the 12min night time) he will solo smoke, with 2-3 obs wards, and place them deep in the enemy jungle, like clockwork everytime.

                          you want to buy 1-1 ratio of sentries to obs, if there is an invis hero or something like TA traps, make that 1-2. If you're trying your best to buy the wards and get them down i'm very sure that players will help out if you ask.. Lategame i'll be like 'hey can someone get me a ward set so i can get a gem or w/e, and instantly everyone on my team will buy a set'
                          Remember, if you have the wards down first, you can see where they ward.

                          If you cant ward by yourself, Don't.. say 'hey can someone escort me so i can get some wards up'

                          This might be abit crazy, but try and avoid skillshots or heros that require very specific timings (eg. my last pick pos 5 winter wyvern for example), I just played a game with a legend Wyvern (maybe he just had a bad game, but wyvern naturally does everything a carry hates if played poorly) Pushed the lanes with his W, Didn't spam his Q in lane, Ruined kills with his ulti and froze me on macropires. Maybe it was just a poor experience however i know for a fact that i've been in immortal games and had the immortal guys complain about the same things that i just complained about. 'Please don't pick skillshots' .. It's fun to hit that Shackleshot or land that perfect arrow etc, but if you miss you're gonna have a bad time

                          Picks
                          Top meta supports right now
                          Pos 5-
                          Tier 1. Witch doctor, Warlock - These heros have excellent sustain/teamfight potential. WD chews through strength heros and his heal is 2-1 heal per mana ratio which is currently the best heal in the game, skill it early.. usually lvl 1 against dual harass lanes.
                          Tier 2. CM, treant, Jakiro. - nova is OP and everyone likes mana, 90 base damage root and a phat heal/slow is very strong in lanes.
                          Tier 3. - Rhasta, Lion, Lich, AA, shadow demon - Hex is undispellable, so hex heros are a no brainer... these heros are clunky but deadly in the right hands.
                          Tier 4. Venge, Bane, sky, willow, Windrunner - These heros can absolutely dumpster games if given the chance... they can also feel like free 200 gold to a brood or ench cheese etc. (sky, willow, wind runner should be played as pos 4's)
                          Tier 5. Any other support
                          Tier 6. Any other hero played as a pos 5

                          Tier 1 is sustain, Tier 2 is harass, tier 3 is kills/objectives, Tier 4 is single target 'fukdatguy' etc.

                          (Always first phase your support, I don't care if you're PPD or not, you're there to assist your team not carry your team. Let your mid/carry have the 'most impactful pick')
                          atleast in 5k pubs, the meta is.. first pick support/4.. 2/3rd pick is 4/offlane... 4th/5th is carry/mid

                          Send Bob and Vagene pls

                            Hello Friend, I think I'm still considered a newbie here, first downloaded dota October 2016, MMR calibrated at 1080ish,
                            I played Support 85% of all my ranked games, with the 13% Axe, and 2% other heroes,
                            I climbed with ogre magi to 1800, treant protector to 2500, and Lion to 3700 MMR right now, (sadly my carry skill is still at 2500ish),

                            First thing is Mr. Jaqiqoqiqa above has pointed out great points in everything i learned over the past 1.5 years of dota,

                            - His 1st paragraph is about least death, its better to support to get K/D with 1/5, than 5/15, your survival comes first outside team fights, NEVER climb stairs to dark jungle, go around from lane to ward/deward, glimmer cape before entering dangerous area, ALWAYS bring 1 smoke of deceit to detect enemy presence and hide you from ward/sentry

                            - this continues to his 2nd paragraph, itemization, you tend to pick aghanim, bkb combo thinking about that glory of trapping 5 man freezing field, STOP,
                            Start saving lives by force staff, glimmer, AND what low MMR supports never buys, is Ghost Sceptre, you can even bait a Slark's pounce, after he caught you, ghost sceptre away and watch him awkwardly watching while you TP home. (ghost sceptre from minute 15, stops him from getting abyssal fast)
                            (I always go play PA and always carry dust when ever i want easy brainless game and I LOLed everytime a CM blink, BKB, glimmer, and SS, while I BKB myself and kills him in 2 hits, with my massive armor piercing, such expensive, impactless effort),
                            Or go ogre magi, he's super tanky especially with guardian greaves, at one game in 2.5k mmr I actually pushed high ground as Ogre Magi, so my sven can come later when all enemy shows them selves to kill me, I'm dead, sven gets rampage.

                            next is his points,
                            1. outharass the enemy laners,
                            - if enemy team go 2-1-2, buy 6 tangoes, give 2 to mid, and harass enemy offlane/safelane WHILE digesting tango, with right clicks and high damage skills,
                            - if you think they will go 3/1/1 (super tanky offlaner like bristle back, tidehunter, axe, then give your ward to the offlaner) buy orb of venom, and suddenly their 6 offlane tangoes becomes 0 in 3 minutes and forced to jungle. (DONT OVER COMMIT KILLS, especially under tower, thats plain fucking stupid unless your mid WANTS to rotate to gank, "WANTS", he doesn't have to).
                            2. Leave carries thats diving too deep, like clinkz and slarks thats goes into jungles without you, only join them if you have smoke, ward/sentry set, or escape item. You better stay hidden behind your sniper, keep your glass cannons alive. Spend force staff/glimmer on your carry, then hide-TP away to safety, (or die horribly, doesnt matter)
                            3. Shit will go wrong, from 10 games, mistakes will happen in all 10 games, but if you do these things right, you'll win 6/10 games slowly.
                            4. MAKE LESS MISTAKES! TRIGGERED ANGRY PPL MAKES MORE MISTAKES! be positive through out the game, keep spamming "we can do this guys, stay in warded areas for now, sorry". Do the math.
                            We won a game where an enemy clinkz went 20-2, in 15 minutes and after we catch him twice under sentry he's like "GG my team always farming end I wont fight those fucking idiots" and we won.

                            This comment was edited
                            Joe Pio

                              First of all thank you all for the response, I was expecting was less effort and more trolling tbh. lol
                              It seems everyone is in agreement that trading a support life for a core majority of the time is beneficial, so I feel the dilemma still remains because unless someone watches every kill and death they wouldn't know. The scoreboard looks like a feed.

                              I am throughly interested in this topic of itemization. Tbh years ago I used to just rush the big items but for awhile now I have fell in love with the smaller pieces items that build.(Ex PL, most games I can get aquila,treads,diffusal to start) All cheap and progressively effects the game. But, with supports or my cm ive always looked at aghs over push stick simply because at that point in the game I have the 150gpm talent, we are taking objectives and gold is rolling in so fast that I feel aghs makes me a target. To be able to blink in and freeze people in place for my carries has been huge in offense and defense. However, as someone described even if i get blink bkb aghs on cm and I blink into a PA with bkb im still 2 shot. Which I know I mess up many times and honestly never thought about that till now so thank you for that.

                              I 100% prefer support because I find the game the most fun when im able to enable my cores. Everyone wants that Ultra kill and whatnot so why not help make it happen and everyone has fun. lol Also when I tried to play core and never get a stack, a pull, or see 4 wards in shop I just cringe. Never flame really ive got better about that but sometimes at the end on our ancient i might say a few choice words lol.

                              My thing with playing core vs Carry which is something ive discussed with a friend many times is if I play heros with escape im not going to die like im playing a venge that has to swap save my carry.
                              Example is my Pl since I rarely play carry I have a small sample size to work especially since heroes change every couple months.
                              But, my PL in 2018 im like 8-2 or 9-2 I forget but I average 600gpm/xpm consistently even in the loses and my Kda average kda is like 7.0+. So i look at that then I look at going 0/10/32 with a support and wonder which am I actually doing correct lol. I would hope both but I have realized that my instincts and itemization on core is shaky.

                              When I started playing years ago I decided to play every hero 5 times then I think most I did 10+ just to 1) See who I liked 2) Understand the cast times, mana cost etc of what I had on my team and what im going into. Always landed on supports.
                              I would love to just spam Treant but now hes in so its annoyingly easy for people to counter and I also disagree with most builds including ppd style which tends to create friction because people think I have to play him a specific way and report me if I dont lol.

                              Sorry I can always make these long. Once again I appreciate the response and believe ive actually learned something(didn't see that coming). :)

                              AnŦaiN

                                ^^^^^^
                                First pick jug because he has no counters . I cant believe u are ancient and u said that .