General Discussion

General DiscussionPersonal explaination of what changed about bhs

Personal explaination of what changed about bhs in General Discussion
SLQ

    I'm making this thread 'cause I've seen that a lot of people noticed how toxic games have become after the update. Here's my theory based on my personal experience:

    Before the update normal bhs would grant average, decent games, there were still some flamers here and there but nothing more. Games were overall enjoyable, plus you were given 3 reports to use after every conduct summary. Basically normal bhs was the only chance for someone to have nice games, from C below it would get worse and worse.

    When the new system came out I still had normal bhs but games had become much more toxic, they looked nothing like the old normal bhs games but more like C-/D bhs games. In the following 4-5 conduct summaries I've received after the update came out I've had 6-7 reports every summary and received a mute after the first one. Games were garbage and filled with intentional ruiners and leavers, I didn't have 3 reports to use anymore but 0. What surprised me was that the console was still stating I had normal behavior score. It hadn't dropped, yet the situation had changed.

    It was only after the upteenth bad conduct summary that I received C bhs. I abused turbo games and got to normal again. Another thing that surprised me was that it took only 2 conduct summaries to get to normal again, and I had even got an abandon in that period. Previously I needed 3-4 COMPLETELY CLEAR conduct summaries with no reports nor abandons to go from C to normal. Anyway, situation was still trash, ruiners and flamers and 0 reports available to use.

    Now, after that I received 3-4 consecutive clear conduct summaries with 0 reports I finally got back to what normal bhs games used to be. I've recently had nice teammates overall, games were enjoyable and ruiners and leavers were in the other team. Met some flamer but nothing special. Plus I've started having 2-3 reports available again.

    My theory is that they widened the range of what falls under "normal". If before the update normal bhs indicated 10k-8k bhs, now it's like it includes players with 10k-7k. The numbers aren't exact of course, but it's to give an idea of what I mean. I feel like there are "different" categories of normal behavior score.

    To give an example: consider medals in MMR, they have from 0 up to 5 stars. An Ancient 0 and an Ancient 5 have still the same medal, but the difference in MMR, quality of games and stuff is huge. Yet they both are Ancient. Ancient 0 is close to Legend 5, basically a low 4k/flat 4k is still a 3k player, and Ancient 5 is close to Divine 0, a true 4k player/5k wannabe.

    This is exactly how I think normal bhs is right now.
    When I've had 3-4 bad conduct summaries my bhs was still normal (let's say normal 0), but it was so close to C and toxic bhs in general that my games felt like low bhs games. And I was being treated as if I had low bhs myself since I had no reports available.
    Now that I've had 3-4 good consecutive conduct summaries my bhs is normal but let's say normal 4, closer to the max possible (the old 10k). Now I'm being treated like a normal bhs player, my games are overall good and I receive my usual 2-3 reports to use.

    Like I said this is all theorycraft, I'm sorry I repeated things multiple times but it's hard for me to explain it in english and I wanted it to be as clear as possible. And of course, being it just a theory, I'm open to different opinions. Share your experience and opinions plz

    Jacked

      I have a simpler theory. Behaviour score is not a perfect predictive measure of how an individual will behave. Humans are complex creatures and behave in a vast variety of different ways depending on a whole host of different circumstances.

      My Guess is that the new calibration update has brought about the stress associated with recalibrating. Behaviours such as more selfish core-only tryharding. WAnting to perform well inevitably leads to people being More toxic. Doesn't matter what number is assigned to your name, people are people and will behave accordingly. U give too much credit for "normal" or high BS players to behave well.

      SLQ

        ^That's true, but I'm referring to the absurd amount of intentional ruiners, not of tryhards. So many people went core and stuff but I kinda understand that, everyone thought having high gpm/xpm was the easiest way to calibrate high and that having those stats would make a big difference. But to me that's not even being toxic.

        On the other hand, walking down mid is, as well as going in the enemy fountain as MK in courier shape 5 minutes into the game to just destroy items, feeding and abandoning, going LC jungle just not to support, afk farming and then feeding intentionally. These are the people I'm referring to, and there were so many of them since the first game of calibration, 1 every game. Now I think we all agree that things like these happen on a daily basis only in very low bhs games/low priority. They're not supposed to happen in normal behavior score. This, plus the change in number of reports available led me to believe that normal bhs is not so normal anymore, not entirely at least.

        Jacked

          I think we've already established that you play way too many games and your interpretation of intentional ruiners are biased and personal. Hence it is hard to know what u mean when u say there's a lot of ruiners recently.

          Chiwa

            Here we go again

            SLQ

              A player can be biased when it comes to judging their own skills and those of others, no doubt about that. Being retarded when it comes to handling stress could in theory make me misjudge other players, but this is not the case. Players that troll or walk down mid are 100% ruiners. Here's some examples, there are more but I can't remember all of them since it's been like this for 15 days (thought it was a month but just checked when I played calibration games) now, also it would take me 3 hours and a 2 pages long reply:

              https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3598582730, this is the most recent one and the player wasn't a troll, but he actually ruined the game. We were winning, got two sets of racks. It was becoming more and more difficult to push vs Tinker but we were doing it. Suddenly DP writes "I'm leaving bye" and abandons. Lmao I don't even know.

              https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3593671291, in this one Ursa flamed people from the picking phase for no reason, called everyone animals (?). He went mid but since he couldn't handle the lane after 1 minute or so he went afk jungling (and if I'm not mistaken he picked Ursa AFTER Qop). The guy that had randomed Ench (and was utter trash) was forced to go mid vs a Qop that had already got a bunch of lvls. During the entire game Ursa flamed everyone, especially Slark, and forced us to play 4v5 with a lost mid. Basically BM was the only one with brains and who tried to team play.

              https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3593822518, in this game Kotl randoms and marks mid, Sniper starts arguing with him, they offend each other for ages and go for dual mid. They both feed I don't even know how and then Sniper abandons early in the game, Kotl leaves soon after. Also I had to get the courier as offlane Slardar 'cause Omni didn't want to support.

              https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3593920986, the guy that then picked Disruptor marked safe carry first, but the one that picked AM stole his role. Dis flamed him literally all game long and then picked Dis saying "I'm not supporting, I'm carrying". After a while he started supporting but I don't know wtf was going on in their lane honestly, Dis went 1-10 and AM 0-4. Timbersaw managed to go 0-7 vs a solo Clinkz mid and that dogshit MK, even if it's marked as "bottom", in reality spent the game shaping into trees and afking there, between min 0 and 3 he walked in the enemy base in courier shape and basically trolled all game long (this has happened in my very first calibration game too, where a 0-5 MK fed first and then walked into the enemy base to destroy his items. In that same game a Mirana fed and then abandoned).

              https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3587014771, both Rubick and Silencer feeding and trolling (6-17 and 7-18). Rubick started it first for no reason, then Silencer flamed Void for not going in and they both refused to support, instead they just went around feeding. I had to get my own wards while already being behind in farm since I was getting ganked every second and had no vision. Silencer 10-15 min into the game went completely afk jungling, he even stopped using his ulti when there was a fight.

              https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3588238135, the monkey who then last picked LC tried to steal mid and offlane first, just not to support, we had already picked and begged him to get a support. He didn't of course, got LC and went jungling. Everyone was flaming him, Nyx stopped playing and followed her into the jungle, SF abandoned.

              These are like 5% of the total amount of ruiners I've had in the last month, I'm not joking or exaggerating, otherwise I wouldn't have linked the games and explained what happened. If these aren't ruiners then Idk what a ruiner is.

              And the toxicity levels increased so much that more than a few people wrote about it to complain lately. That's why I made this thread to try and understand what changed. Because something has changed.

              This comment was edited
              SLQ

                @Shūjin we don't go anywhere lol, if someone starts flaming I'm gonna stop replying. I made this thread 'cause I really wanna analyze the situation, not to turn it into a shitshow.

                Jacked

                  No one can do anything about abandons. Sucks having them on your team. But they also happen on enemy teams. I've had many free wins because of this.

                  Your other example is what I mean by personal bias. Nothing the about the players actual behaviour is objectively game ruining. You just think he ruins because he flames goes mid as ursa loses and then "afks". But we could argue all day as to who deserves fault for those games. I'm sure ursa would argue that someone picked shit hero, or that he got no rotations mid, etc. That's just Dota on the losing side of the game.

                  Mlada i Luda

                    i've experienced every bracket of bs with the old metrics. after the update i've experienced only normal behavior score , and D behavior score in another acc. from my experience i cant exactly tell which bs with old metric , this normal bs represent.
                    I know that with the old metrics 9k and above games were prety normal and enjoyable " in average" , ofc they will be exeptions. with enjoyable i mean that you would rarely get a reason to report someone in your team.
                    Nowdays i can say for sure that " normal bs " its not at all around 9k. I've experienced in normal bs prety much the exact same games i used to play in 7k bs with old metrics. which is prety bad, not " normal at all" .
                    about D bs that ihave in another acc, i can say for sure its somewhere around 3-4k with the old metrics.

                    Im not sure but ithink that the new update the best behavior score is A and A+, which would represent 9k-10k with the old metrics. im not sure maybe A is below normal , but i dont think so we gonna need the opinion of some A -A+ players to comme with any conlcusion.

                    SLQ

                      I didn't even know A bhs existed o.o are you sure about that? I thought 'normal' was the highest possible and after that would come C and so on.

                      Mr/A.Y.R.(return)

                        cmon I stop studying cuz shit like never ending walls of text and check my favourite well behaved anti dellusional forum then what do I find
                        More words than I have seen in 3 years
                        Smh smh

                        Jacked

                          Lmao.

                          pinpin

                            cookies taste good

                            Mlada i Luda

                              Your other example is what I mean by personal bias. Nothing the about the players actual behaviour is objectively game ruining. You just think he ruins because he flames goes mid as ursa loses and then "afks". But we could argue all day as to who deserves fault for those games. I'm sure ursa would argue that someone picked shit hero, or that he got no rotations mid, etc. That's just Dota on the losing side of the game.

                              NO Jacked. your completely wrong , i dont blame your for that cause of they way you think its prety clearl you probably almost never played " normal games " of dota . i mean 9k + with the old metrics . those thing dont exist " in average " always. ofc there will be always exeptions, but that doesnt turn in a problem when it happens like 10% of the games. but 90% of the games that ursa will not go afk after being beated in lane , he will probably cry a bit , if he is a kid .( worst case scenario) . but none of those scenarios would happened in a " normal game " with normal human beings playing dota above 9k bs.
                              first of all people there rarely do retarded things , like going first pick carry am , and other shit like that , which happens a lot in bad bs brackets and leading into a chain of other bad reactions , like forcing other people with same mentality to go duo safe lane carry , and ruining game , or going afk , flaming nonstop and many other shit i go all day long like this...
                              In " good " bs games , if when that shit happens , people will not tilt cause they are logical human beings , they will try to adopt to the game , even if some rly bad shit happens like o the scenoarios @( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) mentoined , that would not lead into a ruined game by any player , mostly of the games , remember there are always exeptins. saying this outloud cause idont want some retard to comme and reply with a comment " look my game iwas 10k bs, and my carry run down midd feed" , yeah that shit happens everywhere but rly rly rare. its prety much like having in team and axe which skip blink in a average 6k mmr game.

                              saying it simply Jacked the lower goes your bs the higher are the chances that your ursa "tilts " and ruin game( inteniotnally or not ), in that specifik scenario that can happend to every player no matter they bs is.

                              This comment was edited
                              SLQ

                                @中國大腦黑鬼 but.. but this is a summary of what I meant, can I add you on steam to explain my point of view in detail?

                                Mr/A.Y.R.(return)

                                  No pls I think I already understood everything and I definitely agree with you pls stay away

                                  SLQ

                                    Ok darling but at least make sure you'll buy my ebook about behavior score on Amazon when I'll publish it. ^This is gonna be the equivalent of the first sentence.

                                    Idk why so much attention is being put on that Ursa, but that player had no reason to flame. He picked Ursa knowing his laning stage would be trash, no one could rotate 1 minute into the game, I was supporting so it's not that we went for 5 cores, and he started being toxic much before, calling everyone animals in the picking phase. And what about the dual mid that then abandoned, randomed Kotl-Sniper lmao, MK walking into the enemy base 2 minutes in. Can you tell these things are normal or average without lying? No because they aren't, they're absolutely out of the ordinary. Especially when they happen in a billion games in a row. This stuff belongs to low bhs games and low priority, so why was this happening SO FREQUENTLY in normal bhs?

                                    Mlada i Luda

                                      its looks that the " average " of dota players have that kind of behavior thats why valve calles it " normal bs" . that doesnt" mean that it is normal at all. this is the world we live in , " normal beavior " is called what usually mostly of the people do . what can you do that people nowdays are fucked up , and that dota community is full of " undisiplined kids " , or grown ups with self-control , stres issues .

                                      as isaid im almost 100% sure that " normal bs" represent the 7k bs with the old metrics , which is prety bad. it looks that moslty of dota players belong in that bracket of behavior thats why valve probably define it as " normal" .

                                      Jacked

                                        mafioso. depends what bracket u are in as well. in 4k bracket most ppl there are ultimate tryhards and played many games. there is a typical dota culture that develops. obviously in 2k bracket where u live people are gonna be more casual. so 'normal' behaviour varies.

                                        its normal to have people tilt. and it also depends how you react to them. if u are the type of guy when someone starts crying and you add fuel to the fire u are more likely going to experience 'ruiners' in your games. a big part of your experience is how you react to something small.

                                        i agree it is perfectly logical to assume that people will be less likely to tilt, assuming behaviour score metric works linearly in that way. but then again, what u consider as 'tilt' and what slq may consider as 'tilt' behaviour may be vastly different. again it is up to the individual interpreting his games.

                                        Mlada i Luda

                                          first of all , when i was talking about different scenarios that bs dictate, i always had in mind games in 4k+ where i live. but yeah i've experienced even 2k - 3k games, and the impact of bs its the same, it jsut works in different ways. but hey sure the biggest problem in those lower brackets it's skill and not bs , sometime there is much better to have 1 abbandoner , than a afk jungle farmer alchemist building 4 moon shards for himself, and taking away all that farm from your 3 other cores that are probably not that much retarded lul.

                                          i dont know why you always love to make me reppeat myself , but as i clearly argumented in my 3 other posts, its not about individual interpreting at all.

                                          try to understand it , its exact same metric as mmr is. yeah sure even mmr have some room for interpreting players, stuff like " your spammer that's why your 1k higher than " , but im better cause i play more heroes, or roles. or stuff like, wtf how is that guy 4k+ he doesnt know how to pull, or is bad at last hitting. in the end of the day mmr is measurement of "overall skills" , same thing goes for "BS".
                                          ofc neither of them is 100 % accurate for everyone, cause of what i said, smart or dedicated people will always try to find ways " tricks" to abuse those things. for example like spammers tends to abuse pubstomper heroes, depending on the " mmr bracket " they playing , same thing can happend even with bs.
                                          to be honest i discovered this from watching cuki games on that 1k bs acc, as an well known abuser he is ofc he naturally founded a way to abuse even bs system lul. prety much same way he does abusing " low mmr players" , by playing lanne stomper heroes , so the enemy team would tilt and rage, feed, give before your team does. cause yeah im almost 100 % sure that bs works exact same as mmr, the enemy team have also low bs.

                                          BSJ apprentice

                                            Learn to thrive in a toxic environment instead of crying Lul

                                            Rocket

                                              Pretty sure people with low bhs are abusing turbo to get back to normal and polluting what would otherwise be enjoyable games...

                                              OG.n0brain

                                                Im surprised you have time to type alphabets here, with that many games played each day. Found the masochist boys.

                                                SLQ

                                                  Ikr, I deserve a good spank don't I

                                                  EmotionalDrift

                                                    Normal feels like old 8-9k BHS with occasional flamer/leaver/ruiner to be fair.. xD I dont think there is grade A or B too cause when I drop from normal its always C/C-. Its weird yes!

                                                    This comment was edited
                                                    SLQ

                                                      ^But if there's no A or B then, being normal the highest bhs possible, it must include 10ks too. That's my point, it goes from 10k to like 7k and the difference between 10k and 7k is huge (remember the Ancient 0-Ancient 5 example).

                                                      For example I was on a winning streak yesterday, had teammates who listened to my advice and to each other, teamplayed a lot, games were fine (I had received 4 completely clear conduct summaries in a row before this), then I received another conduct summary that stated I got reported 3 times in the last 10 games. Now I just played a turbo game after that last summary and I can already feel the difference. I've had a Tiny nonstop talking on mic all game long, pinging, saying to report me just because I didn't stun once, and a Tinker who flamed all game long. IN TURBO, where people are supposed to play for fun. Yes it's just one game, but it's not the first time I notice sudden changes in teammates immediately after a conduct summary update. It's still displayed as normal bhs, but I think the "hidden bhs number" dropped. This would explain the amount of toxic retards there has been lately (+turbo games abusers +rusty players going back to dota after months to try the new system = low bhs-like games).

                                                      Melt

                                                        personal impression:

                                                        this account is "normal skill" but max behavior score. games feel reasonable, positive mindset on 90% of the players. didnt see a jungler in a few weeks.

                                                        smurf gets high skill / VHS games, but average behavior score yet even tho more comments than games and no bulshitting around.
                                                        ppl in these games are the worst. 1-2 junglers every game, stupid drafts all day like lastpick drow into 4 melee cores. chat is a shitfest, i have to mute the whole team every other game

                                                        climb to vhs they say. gonna be fun they say. DansGame

                                                        SLQ

                                                          ^Doesn't matter if it's normal, high or very high skill. It always feels like braindead normal skill. After the game I talked about before I've played other 2 and in one the enemy team was taunting and bragging nonstop, while in this last one a Slardar tryharding and flaming 'cause we were losing, and a Pudge telling to report our midder. Again, IN TURBO lol. It's a completely different game since the last conduct summary

                                                          Melt

                                                            games on this acc are still fine tho, cant complain

                                                            djubre

                                                              Then my beh score is lowest posible and it does affect ir matchmaking game indeed.