General Discussion

General DiscussionTransitioning Tiny through mid-game... Help needed

Transitioning Tiny through mid-game... Help needed in General Discussion
BTalker

    Hey guys,

    I would like to ask you for advice. I love playing Tiny. And for some time, it just sux for me. I can destroy enemy team early game (over 10 kills in first 20 min), but I have an issue I somehow keep losing these games, where I am early/mid game beast - killing people, taking towers, forcing them to 5man, as when somebody is out of position he is instantly dead.

    But with 5manning I feel like I am losing the power I had before. And I kind of dont know, how to gain it.

    The issue is I only win games, where I have PT, dagger, Echo Sabre, Aghanim by minute 25. If it is later, I probably lose.

    My questions/ideas, how to change it...
    1) Should I farm more to have better times for these items and not to hunt everybody on the map?
    2) Should I change my itembuild? Include bkb instead Echo? Because that is kind of why I am dying against 5-man, but again - feeling really slow AS and DMG output, when I dont have echo/hyperstone. Usually I feel somehow powerless, coz I jump in the middle of their team, kill somebody, damage others, starts fight 5v5... and than I die and they wipe us all.
    3) Am I just bad Tiny and just enjoy playing other heroes (last 12 games, all 5 positions, 9 heroes).
    4) I should stop diving so much.. But it feels so good to throw somebody up and kill them in combo, while they still dont know they are already dead.

    Most of my games with tiny are mid. And makes me sad to have 1/3 wins...

    Some of these games:
    https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3176733940
    https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3089891073
    https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3051762265
    https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2998350635
    https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2738776239

    Megative

      I'm not a huge fan of echo tiny. It is good for burst but delays other items that you need for initiating on solo targets and getting backline pickoffs. Try getting blink and/or shadow blade, then building into traditional strength carry items like AC. You can get aghs later once pushing with your team is a must. You should naturally want to build attack speed anyways, which is just another reason echo seems like overkill.
      I personally like getting bloodthorn after my AC. It gives everything the hero needs. More burst. Crit for your high attack dmg. Control with the silence. Mana regen . And of course.. ATTACK SPEED.
      Item builds are of course situational, but getting aghs too early can game losing vs a team that knows how weak you are. I just feel like there are much better items you can build with that 7k you put into echo aghs.

      Cheap Laugh Guy

        Actually your builds are quite stable and standard, echo is good on Tiny, preferably after Blink/SB, before Aghs
        Crystalys sounds like a mistake, you usually moonshard from then

        I don't play Tiny a lot so I can't say much ;/

        inx4c

          Shadow blade is good

          Lex

            Tiny has momentum in early to mid game and super late game. In mid game this hero sucks, since its hard to kill anyone solo. Maybe you go overagressive and start feeding your advantage ? Instead I think you should adapt, maybe stay in the fog of war and wait for the right moment to blink in teamfight. Late game is super ez cos you should already have bkb and cuirass/deadalus.

            Melt

              you tend to have a great KDA every of these games, but:

              1 - your net: 14k, enemy carry - 22k each silencer, axe and necro
              2 - your net: 17k, enemy carry - 27-30k on each bs, sniper and jug, while jug alone can destroy you ez probably
              3 - your 15k vs jug 28k
              4 - your 13k vs jug 32k
              5 - this one seems closer. your 19k vs slightly more on clinkz, invo and pa

              try to farm a bunch of camps after pickoffs, spend your mana before going back, team up in time and get objectives

              [GS5] pbm

                imo agha on tiny is very situational, offers only few things for that gold:
                4.2k gold could be a sb+half of a bkb, those items are way better for the 5-man. Consider agha only when you can get it pre 20+blink or when its super late and its going to be a base race.
                Always think what items do I REALLY need (you only got 6 slots and also limited time to get those slots filled).
                e.g.:

                Game 1: agha+crys could have been linkens (for necro) and se (for axe)
                Game 2: aghs could have been a bkb (vs tinker)
                Game 3: no armor items/bkb vs weaver and lion
                Game 4: is hard to tell, enigma can always crush a whole team
                Game 5: no mkb/solar/bloodthrone to deal with pa and no bkb to deal with invoker

                BTalker

                  Thanks guys, appreciated. I need to rethink my timings/itemization. I dont really want to change my agresive style (here I agree with Lex), as it is my play style of DotA - I always play "playmakers", who just go first, "get things done", kill/damage, push, iniciate and run/die. I cant be for example role 1 (safe laner), if its not pushing TB, who just group up team around and keep pushing. I usually go for snowballing and with Tiny I feel its not going to happen most of the games after 20 mins. I just need to be carried by the team, not other way and dont feel happy about it.

                  If I can give concrete example for Tiny - first game mentioned.

                  After 17 minutes I am sitting on 7.5k net worth, with 11K:0D:4A with dagger (2250), PT (1350), bottle (65O), TP (100), stout (200) - together and waiting for courier to bring echo sabre (2600). But lets say I have this kind of money in that game instead of buying the Echo - SB (for escape/iniciation), defensive/teamfight choice (BKB/linkens), aggresive choice (moonshard/AC) to keep snowballing?

                  My reasoning for Echo:
                  Possibility to keep momentum a bit longer - with dagger & PT, I was able to kill anybody by combo only, but coming to min 17, I needed to give extra hit. And with 4 "disables" (including arrow, call, necro ulti, cask), I just didnt want to risk anybody to just run away - this way, I was able to keep this "momentum" for another 10 min to kill anybody on combo+2-3 hits.

                  What would you pick to transition with this kind of advantage (2k gold lead and almost 3k gold available).

                  The idea for me is Aghs (missing around 1k-1500 gold) and farm, but its just a time when everybody starts 5-manning and pushing/roaming together.

                  Do you feel I f**** up (e.g. lost the game by myself)? I always with Tiny feel, that I completely destroy several of their heroes early, but the carry doesnt go through to follow up on that and wrap the game. We were 8k ahead by 20 mins, but Huskar (our carry) had similar net worth as our dazzle with drow and jungler above him.

                  But generally, I feel with other mids I play (wind 300games - 56%, Alch 31 games - 61%, Medusa 100 games - 67%) I have bigger impact with and get more of the game than with Tiny (35% WR). And with these heroes I have much stronger feeling I "carry" my team, while with Tiny I need to let other players wrap up what I do.

                  If I change itemization (as suggested by "embrace" or "Megative"), will it hugely impact the midgame, or Tiny mid is just not as good midgame and it is better to go other way?

                  This comment was edited
                  Jacked

                    Your answer is shadowblade. And relying on your combo more than trying to right click ppl during 5 v5

                    Jacked

                      That will be a change to your playstyle so u should experiment with it a few games and don't mind the losses

                      Jacked

                        If u want to right click ppl in fights you are right. U probably have to be More farm oriented with echo bkb aghs butterfly ac

                        pyontan

                          i honestly think this hero is a decent splitpusher

                          pyontan

                            i guess u can function like how slark does in that you splitpush while going for support pickoffs when going in-between lanes with sblade

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