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      Yay, Jak and SS are getting some more attention.

      no handshake

        Sinister Gaze seems to be all about ganking off map with a high damage burst partner-in-crime, or winning time by preemptively catching a key hero off guard in a team fight's periphery. This is a rather niche job for this spell, but it does it quite well. Also, if the spell had been a strong disable instead (a root, hex or stun) it would surely have made Lich too strong during the early game. For these two reasons your claim that Sinister Gaze is perhaps the worst spell in the game sounds preposterous.

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        Manic Street Preacher

          Lol goodluck playing Lich after he was nerfed as fuck and turned into shitty little sup from being destroyer of lanes. -4% winrate at 7.20


            Sinister Gaze, a massive repositioning spell combining very well with cast range talent & lens(since lich requires much more mana this patch) is "one of the worst spell in the game" - Dotabuff 2018. Fun fact: do you know sinister gaze can make victims walk through terrain?


              @super.zolo I have almost 80 percent win rate as support lich since 7.20 came out. I miss sacrifice but he is crazy strong right now.


                Wait, why not go 1/3/1 on bane? do you not get slightly more sleep time with the enfeeble? Not to mention it would benefit your ult as well.


                  Nightmare cast range. You need extra points to actually use the spell in fights without being blown up.


                  "Massive re-positioning tool"... 280 units moved without talent or aether lens is a cosmetic effect. I've played 9 (8 won) games on the hero in Immortal rankings and not once did it comes into play massively. Even in the game where I've built lens. And the only reason I've built lens is because the game was already won at that point and I wanted to test if it actually works meaningfully the way you describe and some people might theorycraft about without actually playing the hero.

                  There is some chance you can drag someone over the cliff with it, but it is really small. Watching qualifiers (most of them), I think there was only one instance where a hero got dragged over the cliff, but not in a meaningful way, since he was dead regardless.

                  Even with lens and talent you get 475 units moved. That requires wasting gold on lens, getting to level 20 AND, most importantly, not getting +2s Frost Shield at level 20. Don't do that, it is bad.

                  Hero's in a good place, despite Sinister Gaze being the worst disable in the game by a huge margin. Then, again, as I said, disable is a disable. It will always be useful and 0-cast point is very good. It's just not as good as any other disable in the game.

                  Yami Yugi

                    This Jakiro and Void relationship is very funny, when Void is his team, Jakiro benefit off course, but when Jakiro enemy team and is out of chrono, Void has to choose either eating prey over burning lava or ignore the disabled one and go after the Twin head instead :D

                    Edit : Jakiro is enemy team

                    This comment was edited
                    Ice my frog

                      Still feel Undying should have been here

                      MM.Ugh Brock Hall

                        @KawaiiSocks with the shutdown. Moving past that, do you disagree with the balance the hero has between his skills at the moment? By that I mean is it ok that he has an underpowered skill to compensate for a strong one, or should he have more of an even reliance on his skills?

                        For the record I think it's good to have heroes that have only one good thing to do and have to work hard to make the rest of their kit useful. it's like old Tidehunter, just a tanky boi with medallion/diffusal active and a big stun. You didn't NEED those other things. You just needed the stun mostly. Also, Gush might give it a run for worst disable in the game. Pros and cons for Gush.


                          It's perfectly normal for a hero to have a "signature" spell, something that makes them very powerful in the right game. The reason we have 95%+ picked or banned heroes in most major tournaments and during the International each year is because every single hero is unique and brings something or a combination of some things to the table that no other hero does. It is what makes Dota beautiful, diverse, smart, strategic and tactical.

                          It is also only possible because every single hero in the game is free—business side of things doesn't completely devour and destroy gameplay design space like in other low-quality mobile-like games.

                          So, yeah, I fully agree that it is good heroes in Dota sometimes have their "good" and "bad" spells. The way I prefer to think about it is "how strong the effect is" combined with "how often it matters". Basically "situationally awesome" might be more or less equal to "always decent". "Rarely awesome" = "situationally decent", etc. etc. etc.

                          On this spectrum Sinister Gaze is "always way below average". It is still "always". It is still way below average.

                          Somehow, somewhere in the world of Dota it balances out in the end across all heroes, for a surprisingly balanced gameplay, given the complexity of the game.

                          Except for Terrorblade. This hero essentially has three ultimates. Fuck him.

                          Also, to avoid confusion, Sinister Gaze is, in my opinion, the worst "hard disable" (fear, stun, hex, taunt) in the game—something that doesn't allow your enemy to control their hero or use abilities. I'd take it over slows and would have to look at the enemy heroes/items before thinking of whether in this particular game I'd trade Sinister Gaze for Halberd, Nullifier or Orchid Active.

                          For the record, I'd never trade Lion or SS Hex, Earth Spike, Shackles, Fiend's Grip or any other hard CC in the game for any of these actives.

                          I'd probably take halberd active over Gaze in games against something like Huskar. 5 Second Disarm on a 18 second cooldown is straight up better in this case. (again, 2.4 s on 30s cooldown... welp)

                          I'd take Orchid active over Gaze in games against heavy casters or heroes who rely on mobility. 5 second silence on 18 second cooldown. You get the idea.

                          But at the end of the day it is still a hard disable, it is never truly bad. It's just worse than other hard CC and the secondary effect is cute, but not particularly useful in most cases. Though the fact that Lich now has a hard disable, shitty as it is, still makes him a better hero overall. Lich would be absolutely and completely broken if he had even something like Sven's Hammer, Earth Spike, Light Strike Array, Shackles etc.


                            @MM.Ugh Brock Hall, does Gush count as a disable? It should be considered a slow and armour debuff.

                            The boss of this gym

                              Lich bad disable is a compensation on his ridiculous frost blast nuke early game and frost shield which can reduce 60% dmg and deal a total of 300 dmg over 6 scnds, not to mention chainfrost dmg is high with slightly lower cooldown.

                              The boss of this gym

                                Go tide with Meteor hammer aghanim desolator daedalus. and assault cuirass
                                Meme hammer to boost his early damage output and synergise with ravage
                                Agh upgrade (area gush) synergises with the new anchor smash desolator and can instantly reduce 13 armor (17 armor with talent) and if coupled with AC, it will be more devastating.
                                Daedalus can be picked up if you get 250 dmg talent and perhaps u can kill supp with just 1 gush + anchor smash


                                  Is Venge finally a strict offlane double, e.g. pos4?


                                    ^venge pos 4 was the meta a few patches ago, imo she’s just too good to play as 4 rather than 5

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                                      I mean, Lich sinister gaze is underwhelming. BUT keep in mind, Lich has no means of stun since removal of chain frost ministun. So Lich probably will go from post 5 into greedier 4th post


                                        where the fuck is rubick


                                          @sadboys stealing kills in a pub near you

                                          aikyu3 SuBi ♪

                                            out of topic, but don't you think tide's talents need a rework to make him playable? :(

                                            Megabyte Precisely

                                              What about Ogre Magi?!


                                                Yep. Ogre, Venge and Warlock were forgotten, as well as CM, AA and the silent one. I'd say Disruptor exists, too, but compared to 2016 he's weaker.

                                                Regarding venge 5 - imma fan of first picking this hero, but she feels risky vs a serious dual offlane. If you don't kill, you will probably be harrassed out due to no sustain and insufficient attack range.

                                                But it's probably me playing party queue and facing people 2k mmr better. In that scenario, Warlock or Dazzle are easier.


                                                  im tired of all this alpha male shit and being a pos 1. I am horribly bad when laning not mid, and there are always retards who instalocks mid, so i am moving on to being a pos 5 support which i am much mjch better at in the side lanes. any tips?

                                                  Story Time

                                                    dont play supports, it is so not alpha! Only carry gives you mmr


                                                      How is Undying not mentioned on this list? Easily the best support in the meta right now. You literally cannot zone this hero out of lane, and he is such an annoying harrasser. His mid-game fighting abilities with Tombstone and Flesh Golem can very easily win you teamfights and snowball your team to victory.

                                                      Honorable Mention: Winter Wyvern! She’s kinda weak in the laning phase until you hit 2-3 and put points in Ice Blast. But once you hit that, if the enemy even walks up to the creep wave, they’re going to take a lot of damage. Wyvern’s one of the few supports that still has a Lvl 10 gold talent, so she’ll almost always have items in the mid-late game, and she’ll always have enough gold for wards. Her ult also scales incredibily well because of it piercing spell immunity and it giving attack speed to the targets around the hero you ulted. So if the other team has a Slark or PA on their team, they’re going to get bonus attack speed plus the damage they’re doing, to the hero you ulted. Basically any support is insta-dead and any offlaner is probably dead as well. She goes well in lane with cores like Juggernaut, Slark, and Wraith King who benefit from her healing and like a support with a slow with them.

                                                      Undying is the best support in this meta, and Winter Wyvern is really, really good right now.

                                                      MM.Ugh Brock Hall

                                                        @KawaiiSocks not a single thing I disagree with there. Your concept of situationally awesome vs always decent is one I often use to back up heroes that have poor winrate because they are situational heroes played in the wrong situation. More to the point, it's how I explain why they don't need a rework, because 50% winrate is not necessarily the goal.

                                                        I love the idea that the game can do this only because all heroes are free. It explains why many other games have inflexibility in design for their heroes. If you can't have access to all heroes, then the ones you DO have access to better be able to do anything you need. At that point, why even HAVE different heroes if they all do the same thing?



                                                        It isn't a hard disable, but I'd characterize it as a disable nonetheless. The armor aspect would be....debuff would be the umbrella term but I'm actually unsure what non-cc debuffs are called collectively. To be clear, I'm referring to things like status amp (enfeeble), minus armor, magic amp (shotgun), minus regen (spirit vessel) etc.


                                                          I am very surprised no one's even mentioning Keeper of The Light. I've been recently winning games 8/10 of the time with him on Ancient.


                                                            @No Handshake, 'Sinister Gaze-worst disable' might be an overstatement but it's certainly a contender. Channeled, single target, no damage and brings the enemy closer to him, a squishy support like Lich doesn't want that. Still it's an upgrade to the hero. He essentially has a new ability that can make an impact throughout the game. Sacrifice was only super useful in the laning stage. Losing the early lane control impact from this ability is a hard hit for the hero, but the mana benefit can be resolved with items.

                                                            I think the buff it Sinister Gaze needs is for it to affect multiple targets within a vector targeted cone. Thoughts?


                                                              I think if they dropped the disable time down and made it scale up, but made it an AOE spell, it would make more sense. Then it synergizes with lichs ult.


                                                                Orge Magi is very safe pick right now. The early hp regen allows him to lane and deny very easily. Then grab a 15 min midas and rush agh and eblade. Once you have the +40str talent, you can easily sit in the frontline and harass with ignite. A very solid frontline hero is needed in high skill pubs to kind of protect your ranged cores.


                                                                  Sinister Gaze makes Lich a counter to Bristle Back. Is definitely not just cosmetic.

                                                                  Don Pekas iz Texassa

                                                                    а стало еще хуже теперь их всего 5 ,огр ,дазл,дарк вилоу ,гримсероук и лион.

                                                                    Von Darkmoor

                                                                      Grimstronk major imba.

                                                                      Who the fuck maxes sleep LOL!
                                                                      Rhasta is still weak unfortunently.

                                                                      Also it doesnt mather if you pick first or last if you are good you are just that good if you are bad it wont mather you will lose anyways.

                                                                      Especially since 99% of you play ALL-TARD going for -CM aka real dota then it has some effect.

                                                                      Ras Al Ghul

                                                                        would be nice a post about offlaners, tusk, sand king, dark seer, balanar a lot of them got improve in ways that can play other roles.
                                                                        nice post nice content.


                                                                          Mathc ID 4261255007 . See REPLAY Sir VALVE i need this acc. to banned more issues to come if you want this acc. played again 219645381

                                                                          This comment was edited

                                                                            @Study Time Dood, I think making sinister gaze AOE will make it too strong, because then it basically becomes blackhole with no damage in terms of team disable. I think with Lich's current strength in frost shield he doesn't need a buff to other abilities. If sinister gaze really needed a buff it could be something like increased cast range so that you can cancel tps and other channeling abilities from a longer distance away.

                                                                            Saint Perth

                                                                              Had a few games where sinister gaze provided a lot of kills though. Well the cores did the kill but 2.4secs is a big thing when setting a kill. In one of my matches Weaver couldn't use any skill and Drow Ranger just frost arrows his arse to death.

                                                                              aikyu3 SuBi ♪

                                                                                Glad to see the community is actually active and open to discussion now.


                                                                                  What are your thoughts about Oracle?

                                                                                  MM.Ugh Brock Hall

                                                                                    @Saint Perth

                                                                                    The Drow silence likely was a larger factor than the gaze though, six seconds of silence is more than enough to take care of a glassy weaver. He relies very heavily on being able to double his life in fights or escape after a big dive, the silence neuters the part he cares about, similar to disarming a huskar. I can't stress this enough: never play Weaver against a silence skill hero. A hard disable is never 'bad' to have, but I agree with Kawaii that it's the least impactful hard disable in the game, even malifice is better (although it's close).


                                                                                      Sinister gaze is situationally awesome, particular if you vs a Bristle or with a dusa.

                                                                                      It is fairly good if you are with a Bristleback too. It feels really good if you manage to cliff someone with it, but thats way harder then with a Rubik.

                                                                                      It is also a Tp cancel.

                                                                                      Still, worst disable in the game sounds about right.

                                                                                      There is also some underappreciated synergy between monkey king and lich. Monkey is getting 4 hits on your with every frost armor unless you are windranger or something, gaze is pretty good with monkey ult (if lich is in the ult, he actually doesnt mind people being moved close to him).


                                                                                        Why is Omniknight not on the list?

                                                                                        Silent Hill

                                                                                          @KawaiiSocks wondering about your thoughts on Dark Willow this patch? Love to play her but she just feels so underwhelming now


                                                                                            @KawaiiSocks. I have one question. Visage? Acknowledging he isn't an ideal position 5 (though in pubs, he'll suffice), and that he can be run in a variety of roles, he is definitely a viable roaming P4 support, that provides an acceptable laning phase, and comes with upwards '4th core' potential. The hero has the highest support win rate in Archon (56.8%), the highest win rate OUTRIGHT in both legend (57%) and ancient (59%), and is second highest ranked support in anything above that. He scouts, stuns, slows, nukes, is a good carrier for utility and team support items. How is he not even mentioned here? For those who mid him - he could've also been discussed in terms of 'mid heroes', possibly? Either way, worth a mention considering the notable chart dominance. (Crazy stat: 4 birds at level 3 - 600 dps, before Gravechill, and without considering the hero itself; Chain stun assuming you resummon - 12 second AOE stun).