More from The Dotabuff Blog
43 comments
pedassag

    Good article.I've recently been playing this hero. You leave him for 20 minutes, you lose. As simple as that.

    This comment was edited
    IFG.PFInferno

      No one talks about how Phoenix pretty much eats Alchemist with sun rays with sustain for teamates.

      matrice

        "he doesn't scale as well and this should be taken into account."
        Man, alchemist scale way better than anti mage...

        Cytrynowy

          IFG.PFInferno - what do you mean? Doesn't Dotabuff stats show Phoenix is weak against Alchemist?

          Megan-nee~ owo ♥

            An example of Alchemist using Aghanim's in a pro game>

            PR vs Alliance, TI5 EU Qualifiers, Game 1. Where you see Alchemist giving an Aghanim's to Weaver near the end of the game.

            Gurin Jeimuzu

              Megan, I think he means in the sense of using it on himself rather than another player. Secret also used alch to farm aghs for other heroes recently

              Ajani

                A good read as always :) . I like that someone other than myself has contemplated support Alchemist. The possibility that a tier 4 can maybe farm a carries ags (eg Qop, Lesh, Tiny etc.) makes the whole dynamic interesting. Additionally, a solar crest/Halberd can give him a bit of a Bristleback complex, where the hero cannot be ignored, yet isn't priority enough to be focused out. I love the prospect of creating space in a FIGHT, and i think a support Alchemist is perfect for those loose chaotic team fights.

                Mogatron

                  Greevil's Greed is too overpowered. When others just got their boots and blink he has radiance. 5x Bounty is just bullshit.
                  The average alchemist averages 950 gold per minute what the fuck.

                  Diabolic

                    Alchemist is almost like a LoL champion in his current state. Overpowered for no reason at all stages of the game. Both of the buffs were totally unneccesary.

                    Revelation 6:3

                      Hi there,
                      I think we missed out morphling ultimate which falls under below situation:

                      Same team: alche + morph
                      morph replicate alche and farm
                      normal gold gets to morph
                      greed's gold will pass through to alche passively

                      Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/3plzw7/clone_enemy_alchemist_get_easy_gold/

                      I <3 lady music

                        in dealing with alchemist you do not touch on his low agility and armor. alchemist's agility growth is basically the same as clinkz's strength growth. He might appear tanky because of regen, but unless you go above and beyond in the hp pool, he's actually really squishy because his physical dmg resistance is extremely low. Anyone who builds a deso, if they get it fast enough, is going to be good against alchemist. Slardar is very good against alchemist. Heroes that remove armor are effective ways of dealing with him without being pigeonholed into picking aa every time you see an alchemist. If you build a deso on slardar, he's going to fall even faster than slardar normally kills heroes with a deso and ulti.

                        feed

                          WHY SOMEONE WITH NORMAL SKILL BRACKET WROTE THESE STUFF ? LOL SUCH POOR UNDERSTANDING OF THE GAME AND APPARENTLY NO COMPETITIVE INSIGHT ABOUT THIS HERO AT ALL. WHAT ALCHEMIST KEEPS AN AGH ON HIM FOR STATS ? JESUS.

                          duoluoluo

                            Socks I'm not sure you understand how Alchemist fares in a teamfight.
                            The damage from Radiance and Acid Spray alone is nearly enough to outweigh what most carries can bring to a teamfight -- Lone Druid for instance can't even begin to compare.
                            Alchemist's only real problem is lack of lockdown but that's what his team or basher/abyssal/mkb/concoction are there for.

                            Ayase ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

                              Currently my my 4 games alche has a avg of 759 GPM (plus 1000+ GPM on one game). Except the one game abandoned (6.82), the 6.85 Alche is so OP. must be nerf

                              Goblins Greed: Must be activated before it works (like drow ranger). Bounty rune bonus always x5, but the creeps bonus does only .25% if not active. CD bout 30sec. When activated last bout 5-10sec

                              Chemical Rage: Health regen nerf from 50/75/100 to 50/65/80. Movement speed bonus nerf 30/40/60 to 30 on all level. Alche is now immune to his own Unstable Concoction when explode during Chemical Rage. When Goblins Greed is activated during the Chemical rage, grants +30 MS and a phase movement.

                              P.S. no hate pls. I'm not a pro, only 3.5k mmr range. Just my opinion.

                              IFG.PFInferno

                                Cytrynowy - In plain stats doesn't reflect support's effectiveness. With the popular alc build these days, the atk spd slow and the constant 5pct dmg /heal per sec creates a decent amount of sustain for your teamates to dish out dmg to survive in team clashes.

                                It's the same concept like Treant where the hero's team effectiveness doesn't reflect in stats because teamate sustain skills doesn't reflect as an assist via stats recording.

                                Ajani

                                  @DTS.ArtStyle
                                  "WHY SOMEONE WITH NORMAL SKILL BRACKET WROTE THESE STUFF ? LOL SUCH POOR UNDERSTANDING OF THE GAME AND APPARENTLY NO COMPETITIVE INSIGHT ABOUT THIS HERO AT ALL. WHAT ALCHEMIST KEEPS AN AGH ON HIM FOR STATS ? JESUS."

                                  Ether you misunderstand or misread what was meant. Alchemist is able to turn aghs into a buff (stats included) the scenario entails Alchemist building a aghs for himself (LATE game) purely as a 7th slot, 8th if he has moonshard.

                                  Technician

                                    I really don't get the ignorance/hate for Aghs. I'm willing to wager at least 6 significant games had Aghs upgrades. Off the top of my head, Secret twice gave Necro the upgrade (as did others). Alliance gave WD the upgrade to win against NIP in the mega-creeps game, and I can remember countless other upgrades given.

                                    It's not remotely sub-optimal and it's pretty obvious that WD, Necro, Visage and other key upgrades are far more important than Moon Shard consumption. The quality of this article as a serious contribution seems very suspect if you haven't even seen the data that this has happened in pro games (which just looking at the stats could inform), let alone having watched those games, many of which were very prominent ones. It seems like the author has just internalized the "Aghs sucks" mentality without actually looking at any evidence

                                    KawaiiSocks

                                      It seems like the reader has just internalized the "Writer sucks" mentality without actually looking at any evidence)
                                      I think Aghs is sub-optimal when used as a slot on Alch himself - hence "can be considered very sub-optimal fourth." (the current popular build takes 4 slots, leaving two open. Moon shard can be considered 3rd free or 7th slot. Aghs on Alch can be considered 4th free or 8th slot) More or less what I meant. I don't think I've seen any pro player ever eat an Aghanims Scepter as Alchemist)

                                      glowing 1000 degree KNIFE

                                        meh most alchemists i meet in the 4k bracket just go mid and feed and flame their team after they feed this hero is trash

                                        Smoke Mid Everyday -ミキ

                                          :) When clock says 9:20 it a 10th minute
                                          Otherwise how would you say for 0:20? In 0 minute?
                                          So he scored a goal in 10th minute, he made the radiance in 10th minute :) come on use your brains humans

                                          Technician

                                            Well you did say "I do not recall the usage of the item in pro games, however in pubs, which tend to be unnecessarily drawn out, it can certainly come in handy"

                                            There have been at least 10 instances of Aghs usage in pro games this patch (and I mean prominent games). Fair enough, on consuming it himself, but I still think you haven't paid any attention to either the practice or the logic in theory for giving Scepter to other teammates and at the point where you are devoting half a page to support Alchemists, Lotus Orbs and the like, that's a pretty significant omission.

                                            DeliriuM

                                              I actually like when the opponent picks alch... I have only lost to it once this patch that I can recall. The hero is just not strong (he farms faster than anyone in the game no doubt, but he needs damage, attack speed, armor, HP, and mobility to be useful) and on top of that the people that play him tend to go ultra greedy, leaving their team to fight 4v5 and then when he does show up he just gets kited or bursted. If at 30 min you see a 6 slotted alch split pushiing or an AM split pushing with BF PT Vlads Manta, I am far more afraid of the AM.

                                              DeliriuM

                                                KAWAII SOCKS WAS REFERRING TO AGHS BEING USED ON HIMSELF AS SUB OPTIMAL, THEY ARE NOT SAYING FEEDING AN AGHS TO YOUR WITCH DOCTOR/AA/VENO/UNDYING/MORPH ETC IS A BAD IDEA

                                                GD (G.O.D)

                                                  Nah... alche is not overpowerd. he is soft like crystal maiden.
                                                  Lately many ppl know how to counter alche already.
                                                  used to be op at 1st coz no one know how to counter it.
                                                  now go try pick alche hahaha, and everyone will counter pick u!

                                                  Panigale 1199 S

                                                    Talking about counter; What is your top counter to Alch ? especialy mid.

                                                    Ran some 1v1 test with a friend. Alch Vs Viper, DK, Silencer, OD and Axe.

                                                    Alch zone out most heroes by spamming Acid cloud.

                                                    Viper: is meh, can cancel alch bottle with corosive skin in acid cloud but that's about it.
                                                    DK: its equal until late when he laught at Alch near 10 min mark. You can fight him in acid cloud.
                                                    Silencer: Curse of the silent spam is very annoying. About 60% less Acid spray can be cast.
                                                    OD: at lvl 5 OD zone out Alch completly. Too bad OD is out of the Meta right now but he's a very aggressive counter pick to alch. 3x stack of astral and Alch lose his mana bar completly.
                                                    Axe: Alch cant reach the creeps, Axe built in regen is nice to deal with acid.

                                                    This comment was edited
                                                    Bruno Ricci

                                                      Alch is kindda becoming a cancer for low level mmr. A lot of people get hooked to the hero because of the great accomplishment feeling you get when you see your GPM at the end of the game and pick him compulsively. Problem is the playstyle forced by alch:
                                                      1- (Your team) Much like Anti-Magi, Alch pickers tend to afk farming forever, sometimes not even helping to defend... Some also feel entitled to the jungle/runes and flame whoever uses them. Most alch pickers in the team kindda force the whole team to play that '4v5 during the whole game while I farm for the first 40 minutes'.
                                                      2- (Your team) Much like Nature Prophet, most alch pickers stick to their own personal subgames even at later stages. Even when farmed, all they will do is (farm... I mean) splitpush and never actually take part in a team fight.
                                                      3- (Their team) Alch, much like old ancients-farming Tinker heavily punishes passive playing and lack of team cooperation (pretty common things in low level pubs). As your teammates fight over buying wards and taking farm, a decent alch will be left unchecked for 20-30 minutes and suddenly show up completely overfarmed and cause that unevitable wave of desperation: 'gg, report team feeder, afk fountain nbs!'

                                                      TL;DR:
                                                      Current alch's current non-interactive and farm-intensive playstyle ends up being very very cancerous to the great majority low level pub matches, not mattering in what team he's picked. Not exactly trashtalking about the hero himself, though. I love the possibilities he provides.

                                                      This comment was edited
                                                      duoluoluo

                                                        To be fair the Alchemist is entitled to every rune and especially bounty runes -- he also can flash farm faster & yields higher benefits from said farm than any other character in the game, so he's also entitled to the jungle. Basically every damn creep he can kill on the map should be considered his.
                                                        So having a 4 man fight squad while Alchemist gets 3 core items & farms scepters for the rest of the team ; with the occasional TP in to fight... is a sound game plan.
                                                        Then again if you're in a shitfest bracket and people can't even last hit decently... you're fucked from the get go regardless of what you & others play.

                                                        And if you're looking for a mid hero to vs the Alchemist ; Brewmaster. You just prevent the poor yellow thing from farming at all. He's going to get the 1 in 5/10 last hits and sit safely under his tower as you proceed to control the lane as you see fit.

                                                        Lifestealer/AA are his overall best in game counters though. Just avoid having lifestealer and AA on the same team... it's counter productive.

                                                        This comment was edited
                                                        Alacrity

                                                          My top counter to alch mid is TA, it's easy to deny a huge amount of creeps from him and cs under your tower. Your refraction also helps you tank the acid spray a lot. Once the TA is level 7 with phase boots, it's very easy for her to kill the alch, even if his ult is activated, since most alchemists don't get stun at all early.

                                                          GM_Kappablanca

                                                            drafting with good teammates i think alchemist cant be outscaled. sure he will be 6 slotted at some point before your carry and when your carry gets 6 slotted he totally beats alche. but alches itemprogression doesnt stop at 6. he can be 12 slotted. that is +5 aghs and +1 moonshard. i doubt your carry antimage can outscale aghs ong WDsupport and VenoSupport such as happend in Secret vs Someone.

                                                            the way to beat alchemist is to win the laningphase, gank alot and proceed to push towers, lower the farmspace on the map for him. ward both jungleentrys, mb ancients. a succesful gank on alche gives u a ton of gold due to his big NW as well described in the article.

                                                            Errmmm

                                                              Remember when they said alchemist is trash before,now look at him Kappa

                                                              Panigale 1199 S

                                                                @ Jesus Christ Ofcourse you think TA is good that's the only hero you play :D

                                                                dón kíjám-

                                                                  mhmm i have not lost to a alchemist yet despite he running around 5min radiance he dies like a bitch

                                                                  but anyway why has noone considered instant dagon 5 as startingitem and pengpeng by ~15min

                                                                  This comment was edited
                                                                  리아 ♥

                                                                    I just fought against the alche with

                                                                    BF , Silver Edge , AC and Abyssal built with shadow priest and omni in his team and that was A LOT stronger. even AA can't do shit

                                                                    he joined the fight at min 20 with BF , Shadow Blade , AC and Basher. strong as fuck :)

                                                                    Undigon

                                                                      Thanks for the article.

                                                                      YEETUS DAT FETUS

                                                                        Lol all these "muh he's only normal skill" everybody's entitled to their own opinion

                                                                        Tirador ng Tutong (Magiting)

                                                                          dude. alchemist can manhandle almost any carry late game. I've once gotten toe-to-toe with a similarly farmed anti-mage, even during the time when the hero was only 40% winrate... his chemical rage is an insane dps steroid... itemise him with mjolnirs and other hyperstone-based items and a solid damage item like daedalus and maybe a skadi for some extra meat and he could easily go one-on-one with almost anyone... when his ult is on cooldown though, it's a whole different story...

                                                                          Saga

                                                                            hmm, nice hero really balanced :D http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1900041836 1,259 gpm :/ .

                                                                            Masoud

                                                                              pls fix this pls wtf this hero min 7 radiance and he fight 800 hp heroes , rly balance ty valve

                                                                              ✪ DEST1NATION_X

                                                                                Between manta and octarine, after radiance and travel, which items do we need to prioritize / build first?
                                                                                I prefer octarine, because HP boost stat & reduced CD :)

                                                                                사계 (四季)

                                                                                  check my profile
                                                                                  I have a 11th winning streak on alch so far in this patch

                                                                                  erk

                                                                                    Just kill him, he's so fucking easy to kill in the laning phase. Once you kill him kill him again, and again and again. He will be able to recover, but at that point the laning phase is already over and his team will be at a disadvantage. If you leave him free farm you can't be surprised if at 20 min he is 4 slotted ready to destroy your team

                                                                                    Jam

                                                                                      Nice article was an interesting read and all views were put across with great detail. Sad to see some people can't appreciate how well thought out this article actually was.

                                                                                      AnThRa[X]

                                                                                        I had a 9 game winning streak with alch mid until I got a support storm in the 10th game -_-