its not big deal if u have 50 laahits at 10 on safe its big deal if u have no kills and died ...3 0 score with 50 lashit is way better than full lastlhitting..100 lh at 10 means nothing if u didnt kill offlane once tbh
With free farm 60-80 is a must if u wanna be decent at playing carries.
Recently i had 96 with Ursa. I was moving from creep lane to take closest big camp and so on, so I didint miss the next creep wave.
@Mekarazium if I understood you correctly I cant agree ,on normal mm i am paired with 2-4k players and under 2,5k lane is pretty free farm also i menage to get some kills early because offlaner is making a lot of mistakes. In 3k+ scenarios are different. Sometimes in 2 melee vs 2 ranged I get really low amout of cs @10 mins . Sometimes ppl are roaming ( yes it happens in ns too) and i constantly have 3 enemies mid and no help from my team. Although I agree that missing last hits is bad I just can't agree that "if u wanna git gut u nid 80 lh @10 mins ns noob" that attitude is just very foolish imo..
and btw if i have low mmr but my normal mm w/r is above 50% will i be able to climb my hidden mmr like without any borders or is my ranked mmr affecting hidden one too ?
I think that rule is generally for free farming hero's. Also, a pro is playing against another pro which makes it much harder to perfectly last hit/free farm.
i consistently miss 50%+ of my creeps in the first wave and im 5k
not saying thats even good but ye
pretty sure u dont use pitlord as an example he has some insane creep clearing abilities if im not mistaken
10 mins is a good place to check cus most heroes are still lane farming only at that point, not ready to push hard, not ready to fight, so it's easy to tell how many cs you missed in lane. Pro play is totally different since you're vs a high level opponent and they will sacrifice one lanes matchup to get a better one elsewhere etc. but if you watch the pros when they do have free farm on a hero like am or Sven they'll be at 80-100 cs at 10 mins easily
Steve, the main issue about lasthitting is that u can do at least 70/70 on an empty safelane without significantly disturbing creep equilibrium and tanking creeps on ur signature heroes without items and abilities (10 min). Things are a bit trickier when u are in Midland (highgrounds make ranged creeps miss resulting in different damage output). Also, the opponent will do his best to deny or at least pseudo-deny (hitting creeps in such a way that the die to lane creeps) ur farm. For the above reasons u can observe games where even professional players obtain less than 50 cs in lane (however given the perfect freefarm lane they will not miss any)
Hahaha
In low skill games every side lane is always a 2 v 2 shitshow where a superpowerful enemy offlane will be up against your super weak carry+solo support while your offlane will consist of useless shit who get crushed by the enemy carry and solo support, and your mid hero will be pretty useless too.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2374057421
I get chucked into this game filled with these morons. Undying "supporting" me against a solo bristle. Pudge and Leshrac offlane. I'm like fine, if you want to pick shitty heroes just crush the offlane at least, pudge replies "that's the plan". Even though they are a fucking pudge and leshrac against a fucking melee carry with a melee support they manage to allow the LC to farm 63 cs in 10 minutes while I have to deal with a bristleback constantly in my face spamming quill spray plus nature's prophet tping down to help gank so only get 42. Mid Invoker gets 37 cs to the mid SF's 62. Dumbshit gets an 12 minute midas. The SF already had fucking treads+Eul's by that time.
Pudge goes on to make the grand impact of 3-13-7, leshrac goes 2-7-8.
And this was apparently rated a "Very High Skill" game by dotabuff. roflamo.
Meanwhile in my 1k:
Every safelane i had, has been fucked by some cancerous duo and end up having only 30 max. lasthits at 10 continuously trying to get some farm in jungle with my iron talon and still die because 1k decides to go full 5 man pubtrain against me to make my life more miserable as safelaner as it already is and decide to switch back to offlane next game where im the best
if you have 30 last hits/10 in 1k mmr you are BAD at dota
I guarantee you I can get far more against any duo or tri (rofl triplane in 1k) you can state.
I have a game in normal skill where I was solo antimage against cm + riki duo lane, which is probably the 3k equivalent of a WMD. I killed them both twice and they abandoned by 5 minutes ROFL
Yeah against low skill players anything works though (unless you are another low skill player).
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2166095904
Played this one, went carry sand king. Sny, Mjollnir, MKB, Abyssal Blade, Daedalus, Consumed Moonshard, BoTs. Was able to manfight the PA pretty easily for most of the game. Eventually just sold everything and bought 3 rapiers and just afked until the enemy won. My team of course were unable to do anything because they weren't the ones who were snowballing off kills (I only killed the enemy when they interrupted my farming) while the PA was able to snowball off kills.
Pulled out a similar build for this game:
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2231028259
I mean, when you can outfarm the entire enemy team you can pretty much pull out anything and win.
Or you have games like this - http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2219872779
Where despite crushing the enemy constantly to the point where they can't show their faces to you without dying your team manage to feed almost as many kills to the enemy as what you have fed off them. It's really truly amazing how bad 1k players are.
I mean heck with some of my smurf games I would even just sit in the lane doing nothing for the first ten minutes.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2184080904
In this one I just farmed mid till I had enough money for a shadow amulet, bought it, came back and sat mid with it while they stood there taking damage, then when they would get low enough to be killed I would ulti and then just go back into invis.
I get more or less 30 cs at 10 because I often get laned with dual side lanes but I play anti-mage and get 500 cs the whole game :)
Against pros there is much more harasses and ganks,making last hitting harder
Against shitlords on 1k below 50lh/10 min is bad,since you will be freefarming anyway,and if you get harassed you can always go to the jungle where they wont even touch you until minute 20 or so
>tehrefore, everygame is a freefarm.
Stupidest thing I've ever read. Given that basically every game at normal skill is dual lanes against heroes that totally rape in lane, yeah nah.
i got 4 cs per minute in my last two pa games and i won both of them quite convincingly and had ~20 kills in both
as it turns out u do not need to hit creeps to win dota
@KR I had around 30 cs maybe 40 at 10 mins as slark against silencer and sniper I bought talon and farmed stacks with underlord. Raped fools in my bracket and managed to carry this shit with a rampage. I totally agree with you and imo anyone bitching '100 last hits is fine' has just really limited thinking.
>tehrefore, everygame is a freefarm.
Stupidest thing I've ever read. Given that basically every game at normal skill is dual lanes against heroes that totally rape in lane, yeah nah.
except in normal skill those idiots don't know how to dual offlane.
example of a good dual offlane is my last lich game, game was over before 15 minutes how we stomped and pushed.
meanwhile in NS, all they do is right click you. enemy support in offlane literally pulls aggro onto himself and ends up taking more damage than he did to you.
the enemy offlane carry can't last hit so all he's good for is rightclicking you.
meanwhile when i'm those games, all i have to do is pull aggro once and i won the lane. . . against that scary NS dual off beaten by a single rightclick. . .
not to mention how much freefarm you get in the jungle, free creeps EVERYWHERE.
listen to kitrak
in the first 10 min u lasthit as many creeps as your teammates+enemies allow u to
@Cookie
That's not a rule sometimes offlaner is decent sometimes he's feeding, sometimes you are 1 melee vs 2 decent ranged only because your stupid support is party with offlaner and you have jungler in your team and nobody in this dumb suicide squad understands that this way they are loosing all lanes.
Seriously nothing in ns is a rule.
I've noticed that kind of easy way to win random draft games is to pick (even insta depending on draft) carry that has very little counters in draft. This way even if you end up with 50 lh at 10 mins you can catch up later by farming like crazy, getting some kills in bad executed fights by enemy heros which leads to ez win even with 50 @10 mins.
@Steve97
it doesn't matter, trust me
even against dual range offlane like viper + lich you can pretty much get freefarm in NS how bad they are at laning. in NS 9/10 games you should have at least 65+ LH. like that's saying a hell scenario, more realistically you will have 100+ in 10-12 min because they're so bad at stopping a carry from farming.
The problem is low skill is that the enemy will just harass the fuck out of you instead of trying to last him themselves
they won't, because all they do is right click you. they can't position themselves in a lane to do proper harassing.
recently i had a 5k support who did that, i'm 100% sure that all the games i played in 1-3k players just stand there and tank creeps while harassing.
like i said 1-2 aggro tricks and you won the lane, not to mention how easy it is to kill them once they actually start getting hit by the whole creepwave because they can't pay attention
@Cookie
Could you link some videos regarding:
- 1v0 last hits at 10 mins
- harrasing in duo lane (i could improve my supporting)
- getting 65+ in 'hell scenario'
At lest one could be helpful
try googling it yourself. i don't know any, i could make some videos in a couple of days.
Getting 80 last hits by 10 minutes... a 5k+ MMR carry should be able to do this in a simulation 1v0. Actually doing that in a game is hard for all but the best in the world.
Looking over the last 5 games I played at about 4k MMR, there are 10 safelane carries. None of them got 80 lasthits at ten minutes. The highest was 67. No one else was above 60, only 3 were above 50. That is what realistically happens in games at 4k MMR. All ten of the safelane carries had supports protecting them and giving them lane control but they all missed plenty of lasthits anyway. They all have several thousand games of practice minimum.
Lower MMR players usually can't lasthit at all until their damage is a lot higher than creeps. Even at the start of the game your damage is higher than creeps and you will get some lasthits if you merely autoattack the lowest creep. Most players in Normal Skill cannot do better than the lasthits they would get from autoattacking the lowest creep in the first few waves. A lot of them try to lasthit anyway because they hear that autoattacking is bad. It is funny to watch.
If you want to get a realistic picture of whether you are farming well or poorly for your MMR level you need to get Dotabuff Plus stats so you can see lasthits at 10 minute for all of your games and compare to other players at your MMR. Unless you are in Very High you will see that people miss a ton of lasthits, probably over half of them the first few minutes of the game. Average dota players can't really do it correctly. If you can, you are far above average.
If you are an average player, admit it, and deal with it. This means get a queling blade and get your damage up to where you can actually lasthit quickly. If you are still struggling, get phase boots.
my usual benchmark to see if im farming well is LH @10/20/30 : 50+/120+/240+
but if im playing a hero like sven i won't be satisfied under 70 @ 10min 200+ at 20 and over 350 at 30 min
Reclamation posts saying if you're good you'll get cs in 1k, yet by his last 5 games he has fed in all of them and did nothing for his team lol. Don't listen to some vhs players, some of them only got there from their teammates carrying them
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why is everybody 'good' so salty about last hits at 10 mins as core?
(60 lasthits is good 80 will get you somewhere)
I've been watching some pros and they mostly make it between 40-50 mid and 50-70 safelane. Of course they have more if completley free farm eg.
4th game dc vs wings
shadow @10 mins 66 lasthits.
Why are you always talking about 80+ i just dont get it ?
(ns is the answear ofc isnt it pros though kindof not ns right?)