greedy position 4 with iron talon
1-2-3-2-2-4-3-3-3-2-4-1-1-1 skillbuild in most cases
u can get literally any items now. early drums ar ekinda ok, sb/blink is ok, gg is a viable choice as well.
That guide feels dated... Tranquil boots seem subpar when you can devour a big satyr creep and have unholy aura for the early game.
With a timber and axe meta isn't there somewhat of an argument for position 2 as a counter pick with infernal blade? Alpha wolf 30% party damage still works. What mechanics are holding him back in the high rankings?
^ New meta is mostly about control and lasting long in fights. DOOM can be easily countered with lotus or linken or shadow demon / manta style.
Hence Doom has little use this patch.
Linkens without level death is indeed a pain.
And that is kinda the conclusion I came to regarding old item builds. Pretty lack luster and useless.
Idk that the old meta was any less about control but I do see almost everyone going mobility builds these days with BOT and blinks everywhere... not to say mobility isn't important but what's the balance between skill, mobility and raw stats? Back when 3.5-4K was "good" (when ranked first came out there were only a few people 4500+) atleast people understood the mechanics enough to make good use of those items. Now it's so hot and miss they would be better off letting raw stats do the work most games... More damage when they get lucky initiation and more stats to soak up damage when they miander around the map and get jumped... Anyways
Back on track, so because he lacks a reliable disable and mobility he basically is seen as a back burner hero? Along with the addition of lotus orb and a huge nerf to his ultimate?
Iron Talon is good. It's a new item that costs 500 gold, and makes jungling much much faster. It depletes about 40% of a full health centaur creep, and it can cut trees and gives you a small armor boost. Very great early item to get things done faster.
As far as items go, blink is okay, getting Greaves is a great idea. He is honestly more fight/lane support than a reliable carry.
Greaves, AC, Lotus Orb, Pipe, Solar Crest, Heaven's Halberd etc.etc.
Anything that helps in a team fight I would put on Doom, but he is not that useful this patch since he is easy to counter. If you doom someone with Lotus Orb you will doom yourself lol
I may give it a go in the jungle with a talon and see how that works. Mostly I prefer to do offline and safe lane.
What's the argument against him going right click with a decent ult?
NS disclaimer
One of the bigger nerfs that took him out of any sort of carry potential was the one to his base attack time (BAT). Higher is worse. Just do a search on it and read up. He now has the highest BAT in the game(2.0), meaning attack speed is a poor investment. Lifestealer was dominant recently, and was nerfed hard by +.15 BAT.
Ah I felt the cast time increase but didn't realize they also hit his attack speed, wow he was never considered top tier was he? Did I miss his day in the sun?
Just going off the top of my head but I think some where around 6 months ago he was pretty strong then they nerfed him down .
Best creep to devour during early game jungling?
Any more detailed item guide and item timing?
Well, I'm just a 2-3k scrub, but I find that getting an early Midas, phase boots, radiance, blink, heart, and then shivas is a pretty good build. You'll want to get the Midas in about six minutes, and the radiance by like minute 15-17. Then blink at about 20. Eat the alpha wolf creep, blink on somebody,cast doom, infernal blade and have scorched earth activated, there's very few heroes that can get away alive with all of the damage from infernal blade, scorched earth, radiance and doom. Then once you get heart, you are incredibly tanky and hit pretty hard. Then get shivas and the game should be over by then, if not sooner.
Early game you definitely want the satyr creep which grants you unholy aura and shockwave. The 8 hp/sec regen aura is great for teammates in early skirmishes too. Shockwave has good range and moderate damage, easy kills when they aren't expecting doom to throw a purple ball.
I also like the necro creep, raise the dead is mana efficient and gives you some skeletons to tank for you if you jungle.
Offlane is definitely the former though. You want that constant health regen so they won't get too ambitious on trying to kill you when you get greedy for farm.
Idk how you're doing well with blink, Midas, phase, and radiance in the early to mid game. Just the lack of stats and regen means you're returning to base a lot or really leaning on the team during skirmishes and doing mop up work.
With the buff to heart from 40 to 45 str and the 2% to 5% health regen it's a core item. It's just too good now.
I have stopped doing drums and vlads in favor of echo Sabre and helm of the dominator... For a few reasons - first the cost is a wash, you get more mana regen, armor, and early damage output, int, strength, at the cost of the movement speed and endurance active. Helm lets you stack camps or bring along a creep into team fights. It also turns into satanic when you need it.
Echo's slow makes up for the movement speed and let's you get in minimum of 3 auto attacks and an infernal blade swing. By ththe forth attack infernal blade is off cd and usuall lets you get another echo slow double attack from the mini stun.
Maybe his increase to BAT is why I have strayed from the old Midas and AC builds and found echo Sabre so much more effective. Rather than stack movement speed letting infernal blade and echo do some disabling has really helped keep enemy Heroes from escaping. Plus, stats...
I have also drifted away from blink just because of his cast timer increase. If you blink and cast doom or scorched earth you end up having to chase someone down which even with phase boots buys them time and position.
Idk just my thoughts on items for carry builds:
Core: Heart of Tarasque, Silver Edge, phase or treads, helm of Dom or vhlads
Situational: echo or drums, blink, bkb, mkb or battle fury, Shivas, ac
Obsolete: Radiance, Midas
Semi obsolete imo: aghs - doom the skill now is a shadow of its former glory. Even if you pause the timer you're only ensuring a little more damage and that thE doomed target is ineffective in team fights a little longer. Imo if you can't get a team fight or gank done in 15 seconds... The extra few doesn help for the cost of the item... But this is talking strictly carry doom.
Doom is definitely not a hero you want disappearing into the jungle to farm radiance and blink for 20 minutes. If the enemy team is giving your lanes that kind of space you could basically do anything and win. Also slark is so popular now going with basically no stats into the jungle he will eat you alive if he is even semi decent.
The right clicking carry build it pretty much dead now. Ive seen him played as both position 4 and as offlaner in pro games, but personally I prefer offlane. The skillbuild is max scourched earth first with a point in devour and infernal blade by 4. Get ult whenever possible and max infernal blade second.
I've been having trouble finding which items work well since the nerfs. AC is still good but vlads feels much weaker with the BAT nerf. AC is situational. Only get it if your team really needs the armour. I haven't tried echo sabre, but it sounds like it could work. One item you should always have it an Infused Raindrop. Makes you even harder to kill and the mana regen solves pretty much all your mana problems early on. Combined with the red satyr aura you probably wont need to go to base.
Aghs is still okay situationally. If you need break against a target and the 5 seconds from silver edge isn't enough, then Aghs will ensure that hero is useless in a fight. But yeah its definitely not an item you get every game any more.
The early Midas helps you to outlevel just about everyone else, and the levels gained give you stats for survivability. I agree that the satyr creep is the best choice early game, but once you aven a bit more farm and levels the alpha wolf is fine. Sometimes I get the necro creep if the situation demands it, it's a bkb piercing disable which also roots the target, making them unable to blink away. Great for Antimage or melee carries who rely on blink for their mobility. I haven't honestly tried Echo sabre on him, but it sounds like it could have a lot of potential. Skadi is also situationally an option over AC, as it gives all stats which Doom is greedy for (agi for armor, int for mana and str for damage and hp) and a bkb piercing slow to make sure your target can't run away.
Good to know maverick, I agree with all of that. Especially vhlads and ac observations. I think they are both good if you play a support roll and go for the aura build for your carries.
But as for right click doom it will feel "dead" if you go with those items... And that was the first thing I tried coming back to the game. Drums, vlads, ac all just felt so underwhelming.
Even silver edge alone was ok. Really where I noticed a huge performance increase was going silver edge with echo Sabre. It solved mana pool issues, the BAT attack speed issues and chase issues with the stun/slow/stun... And it allows you to man fight in the 30-50 minute zone where super hard carries aren't farmed (and win).
I was unsure how it would work until about a week ago and I decided to try and gank a bristleback who was farming mid. It was about the 37 minute mark and I had just picked up heart. So I was running treads, echo, helm of Dom, silver and heart. I pop silver and intitiate on him. Doom and silver edge do their work and he loses Passives and quill spam, so he tried to right click me and dies in about 5 seconds... He then types in all chat "what the hell? What was all that damage??" At that point I was sold that there was some viability to the build if nothing else than it was unexpected... And I couldn't think of a hero that would put down a farmed bb solo with such ease...
Ausar - yeah the net is a great support creep to have. I like it better than the stun for sure on support builds.
I used to be a big Midas fan, but Midas is a commitment to a 50 minute carry and doom just straight up loses now in the 50-60 minute mark. Without a powerful doom spell and level death to make up the mid game I feel it's totally a misfit timing wise for him. If some how you could do a six minute Midas and still get silver edge, phase/treads, and echo or drums by 20 minutes...
I also had the same thoughts about skadi, but after giving it a go in three games and doing it once I realized it wasnt adding anything extra. Some armor, some mana and attack speed. The slow I barely noticed because of infernal blade and echo. It might be a valid item to look into more but it just felt like "win more" not "win because".
I have really been considering adding blink back in but more for chase mobility and staying on target than casting a doom spell. My current order is treads/phase into echo into silver edge into helm of Dom then heart. I think sneaking blink in after silver or helm inside the 30 min mark might be a big benefit for the 30-50 min mark engagements.
I might try to get echo and phase and silver edge in 20, I'll let you know how it goes.
I was happier with tread having gone back and forth the past 10-12 games... For chase silver and scorched seems to suffice.
Im playing him as an offlaner and i dominate the lane past lvl 4 most of the time with 2 lvls into scorched earth
Infernal blade can be pretty fucking strong vs strength heroes. Doom needs his BAT reverted back since they keep nerfing his ult. If he could be a legit right clicker carry with a strong ult for utility he'd be ok. They tried to turn him into a semi carry/aura support with a strong ult but then they kept nerfing his ult.
I think due to how strong infernal blade is they nerfed his BAT to keep him from being rediculous. That said the nerf to cd on scorched earth and damage/heal/run speed AND doom cd/damage seemed unwarranted for a hero that barely was a top 50 pick and always a sub 50% win rate.
Really I understand the reasoning though. Echo Sabre with Bash Hammer and Infernal Blade with a 1.7 BAT would have been rediculous...
What reasoning? Blade has a 4s cooldown so you can't apply it quicker by having more attack speed.
It's still a 25% proc rate though so attack speed will increase probability of landing bashes.
Unless they calculate attack speed like diablo II used to it's a almost a 20% increase in damage and proc probability. Stack that with echo and infernal blade and it would lock a target down for up to 2.3 seconds on a 4 second rotation... Two being reliable disables.
Had an interesting match last night with a bad match up per the stats but won. Enemy team had medusa, wraith King, and morphling, two linkens spheres and it went to 53 minutes.
Ended up top Gpm/xpm, and luckily able to man fight a medusa and wraith King with bkb and satanic. Break was super important with silver edge for those fights.
Our pudge was constantly giving me crap for the build. But it ended up being the deciding factor since our Zeus couldn't seem to knock off the linkens charges and I coasted into an easy win after taking aegis and a double racks - even got a tip.
Anyone else tried it out?
In my humble opinion, with .9 per-level increase in both ability & intelligence, Doom is now nothing but a tank. Be sure to stack some armor so that raw hp isn't cancelled out by rightclicks
Blurry - I felt that way too for awhile. Unfortunately idk where I would rank having just come back to the game - and all my mechanical/game knowledge was rusty and out dated...
But I feel like if it was subpar I wouldn't dominate a 3k game. Unless I am playing well below my level.
I'm not seeing your last match on your dotabuff, is that because the server was loaded last night?
Dotabuff has been unable to load steam Api all day. Same with other stat sites... I assume it's a steam issue?
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I am looking for some good up to date guides or thought on Doom.
It looks like there have been a ton of changes since 2014 and I am still adjusting to them. Obviously Level Death is now Infernal Blade and Doom the skill has been nerfed quite a bit.
It seems like he can fill the support roll well enough using a defensive build with Arcane Boots, Mechanism, Assault Curiass Etc, but I am more interested in anyone succeeding using the old "caster" type builds or a right click build.
With all the changes, mostly for the build using Shivas and blink is the fact his cast timer was increased by a bit (.1 seconds or so?) So blinking in even queueing up doom it seems like a quick reaction by tinkers, am, etc makes you fail to get the cast off.
It really appears no one has adjusted items builds to these changes or play style - and I am wondering why? Infernal Blade imo is a really mana efficient early game lane harass tool and a great late game carry skill - but I was wondering if it applies the damage on top of the normal attack damage?
Offensively it seems like all I need to get him to carry are an Echo saber and silver edge. But my game mechanics and knowledge have fallen taking some much time off and it's hard to tell how well this really performs in the 3k range normal skill games. I just know that the old shiva or ac builds feel really lacking.
Without level death to remove linkens buff I feel like the doom skill is just a team fight tool to take someone out mid fight, and not initiation anymore...