there might not be a lot of heroes good for this, I am thinking maybe omni and necro
omni has full blown protection skills already, these are all the protective/semi protective items in the game that doesn't involve right clicking or buffing stats as well and instead has more utility, so I think omni should be the best choice you know for a full blown support non stunner
omni doesn't have any stuns but stuns can be done by cores and other supports just fine. His slow is decent
omni is a bit more mobile i guess and has better team protection but seems less focused than necro in team fights so I am not sure if the blademail especially with all the protections should be changed to something else instead
I am thinking eul for better mobility and more utility , cus I mean greaves a bit too slow, late game change to shiva
against right click heavy then ghost
just think about an unkillable(?) omni in a prolonged(?) teamfight with all that dispel(linken lotus on allies too) and healz(greaves too)
I was never a fan of healerz in mmo cus they can't solo grind levels ez, and omni is just ...I can't stand the hammer..and that stupid winrate, but with this build I might give omni the healer support a try
Carry build supports are so boring
Blademail reflects damage that you take from spells and physical attacks, then reflect them to enemies in pure damage. It doesn't matter if you have BKB or not, as long as the spell causes damage to you (eg: spells that pierce through BKB and dealing damage), and its damage is reflect-able (eg: you can reflect damage from Wrath of Nature, but not Heartstopper Aura). Since Lotus Orb only reflects but not blocking the spell, the rule above still applies. If the spell is blocked (ie: Linken), nothing happens and you won't be reflecting anything.
BKB blocks most spells to be targeted at you, and makes some non-targetting spells to not/partially affect you. However as long as the spell is causing damage to you, Blademail will reflect the damage back to the original source. If the immunity-piercing spell is casted when you have your Linken off cooldown, then you will simply have the spell resetting your Linken's cooldown as exactly what would have happened when you did not activate your BKB. If you have BKB and Lotus Orb activated, then the original source will be affected by the said spell as well, regardless of it being spell-immune or not since the spell pierces through it. However Lotus Orb will not affect the enemy if he is invulnerable (eg: Storm Spirit's Ball Lightning). Basically it means that whatever affects you while you're under BKB's effect, will affect the original caster.
If Linken is off cooldown while having Lotus Orb activated, you will not be affected by the spell while the original caster will be affected as if you are casting the spell. A very good example is Spirit Breaker's Charge of Darkness, while casted on an enemy of the said condition, will waste his mana and cooldown not charging at anything, but his target will start charging at him instead. If the spell is spell-immunity-piercing and casted on a hero who has Linken off cooldown and BKB activated, it will just block the spell as if a non-spell-immunity-piercing spell was casted.
I think relation of Lotus Orb with other items are explained above so I don't need to do it again.
If all of the said items are effective together, it basically means that you can block any spells casted by the enemies once(1), and recast everything to them, fully affecting them since anything casted on you must be spell immunity piercing, reflecting any damage done on you to non-spell-immune enemies (Blademail does not pierce through spell immunity).
However building ALL of these will greatly jeopardize the effectiveness of the carry, so you might want your supports to be building Linken and Lotus Orb for you while making the decision whether to build/keep your Blademail.
And seriously, going for Refresher just for the purpose of these utility items is way too silly. Perhaps the DotA community has better phrases to replace "way too silly", if you know what I mean.
I did say primarily intended for omni , so i guess you will want to rid necro off as necro is like a semi carry.
And refresher omni with standard item is legit no?
I didn't check your comments while I spent my time typing mine AND checking facts.
However unless the game goes ultra late, supports typically don't possess that much of resources to purchase so many luxury items before getting their own cores.
that goes for carries as well. guardian greaves is extremely common and easy to build up for a support, blademail is ez for anyone mid game, bkb is situational must for anyone mid to late game, refresher lotus and linken mid to late game, these are a load of money, but they are the absolute limit of the build as overkill heal/utility protection, of course you don't need this much every step of the way in game
If you intend to try that build as Necrophos, then you will pretty much give up Necrophos's potential to have much impact in fights, since Scepter is the core for you to put enemies on the bench to hopefully decide a game. Even then, you will still need a survival item to stand long enough in fights to spam heals and rot enemies with Heartstopper. 5 items (not including a pair of boots) on a Necrophos usually means ultra late game, or one-sided game which should have been ended anyway.
You can try that on Omniknight though, but I'm not sure if you risk having mana issues when you acquire your Refresher.
I guess you won't want to call a 5300 gold item to be "extremely common and easy to build up for a support"...
that's why early game blademail is nice for much needed mana, and greaves rush is always nice. late game to allow more spell spam after refresher get sheep or shiva
edit: if really need more mobility or mana for sustained fights or worry about refresher get eul or force too
in fact linken is overkill already, and refresher is definitely more effective as surprise buy the later it goes.
the thing is necro is a hero that positions kinda in the middle of the battle line if you get my drift, close enough for heals far enough to not get bursted, but omni can and must stretch further into enemy lines(the aura aoe is smaller), so it doesn't really matter if omni is prioritized or not as a support he will at least get tons of aoe in his face so before bkb, greaves and blademail should do pretty well, next up if you feel like getting the refresher for ulti as your team isn't bursty, that's ok, a casual ghost before that is nice too so you don't have to waste your ulti or anything else for the team on yourself when intiated out of position by heavy physical damage, if your team is very bursty then it's nice to start building up linken and lotus so they can get in and out nice and smooth, together you can put some shield on a maximum of 3 teammates without using ulti, and really fuck up enemy teams' counter initiation. bkb is also really more powerful late game and not exactly easy to build up mid game so less priority until really needed, plus refresher bought as non surprise item requires more surprise, and bkb could be one of the ace in the hole along with shiva/sheep
greaves is actually really common for a starved support to have extra late game, or for a farmed/fed support to have super early mid game
so the core is arcane boot>mek>greaves/blademail/ghost/force staff whichever ones you need but greaves is preferred >eul for aggresive initiation and purge and mobility and mana/refresher for sustain fights/linken against damage or shut down skills/lotus against utility spells(all prioritized for allies)/bkb for self protection against heavy magical focus, whichever ones you need >luxury items such as sheep or shiva for more utility and mana complimenting your aura
Supports have very limited budget ~6-7k gold per match. With that you can buy one big item or few cheap items.
stats of said items for omni:
refresher orb:13th most used among all heroes, 13th highest winrate among all =109= heroes , 12th within =100ish= items bought by omni total (excluding all recipies and nonfighting items like wards gem etc, counting single items until 100th rank AND past rank 100th it's basically ALL single items and early game items and more recipe)
blademail: middle ish usage rank, 12th highest winrate among all heroesbuying this, 94th within
lotus: top 30% ish usage rank, 2nd highest winrate(wow) 31th within
bkb: bottom 10% ish lolz, 3rd winrate (holy shit talk about surprise overkill) 63th within
linken: bottom 20% ish, 2nd winrate( you know what now I agree with icefraud, supports were starved alright, now they can actually do shit with moar moni) 27th within
greaves: 2rd usage, 6th winrate among 24th within
arcane: 9th usage, 3rd winrate among 81th within
mek: 7th usage, 6th winrage among 78th within
(your gonna get both anyways so definitely rush greaves, for mobility see below)
ghost: 50% ish usage, 22th winrate ( maybe not such a good idea so keep situational then?) 71th within
eblade: bottom 20% ish, 7th winrate among 15th within( ok so when you do buy ghost upgrade it or surprise buy in skip ghost)
sheep: 30% usage, 6th winrate among 26th within
shiva: 20% usage, 14th winrate among 7th winrate within at 80% ( so prioritize sheep for much needed hard lockdown)
and I forgot eul : 30% ish usage rank, 7th winrate among, 49th within
force : 30% usage rank, 1st winrate OMG, 58th within
keep in mind I am talking about these stat because people usually just look at heroes' item list and the winrate rank within the hero's game played. I've also edited in the counted rank against items bought by omni, the winrate number is shared between the two rank, check out any item here yourself http://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/omniknight/items
and take it to dotabuff for meaningless stats, i didn't make these features, I just quoted them and that wasn't the point of my thread at all. You could be really good at using divine rapier as earth spirit and single handedly make the meta shift for all I care.
like i said this is all possible item choices for any kind of game length, I added in eul and force and none of these including blademail are expensive for an average game
does it not occur to you that supports can carry games too so the definition of support is kinda meh nowadays--if we are talking about getting a good hero, as well, being constantly in the fight gets you more farm than your average afk farmer carry anyways, just remember to put item choices in there if your rocking standard build by torde de whoever, and buy before inevitable deaths
Every item must be used in right moment.
Lotus Orb works best as a counter to heavy disablers like Tinker, Bane, Lion, etc...
Linken is good vs Lesbian Commander or Doom.
Blademail? Against Huskar probably?
Aghanim or Blink - if you find yourself focused and killed first in teamfights.
If you not sure - buy Greaves/Pipe/Vlads/Crimson Guard.
Refresher Orb is just a luxury late game item.
P.S. We talk about Omniknight, right?
pipe vlad and crimson are pretty brainless aoe utility items, if I'm doing single target utility supporting I'd want more challenge, but yes if I am boring and occasion calls for it I should do those, but then it wouldn't be a fun build no more. They all have 70% winrate, pretty much the only thing interesting about them lolz. Greaves is actually the only boring item here but it is nice upgraded boots for refresher combining 2 great early game item including mana boot. And it has 75% winrate
Win rate has nothing to do with fun. I experimented with support Kukka yesterday, it's fun, I can heal teammates, restore their mana, but I can't win...
I didn't say they do. But a fun build isn't always about changing roles, and I suggested maxing a role and against changing it(dps omni) so I don't know what you are suggesting. Omni has much more utility than kunkka and less damage potential anyways so support kunkka sounds meh
Kunkka has an aoe pseudo heal/damage reduc, 3 unrealiable stuns/cc that are usually just one or two combos or not as effective individually anyways, yet has 4s/cd cleave as melee, 2 aoe damage skills that alone without considering bat strength gain etc is more damage capable than omni
omni has 1 aoe slow passive, 1 aoe heal/damage, 1 aoe damage reduc/resist/ghost(whatever it is check wiki or something), 1 single target dispel+immunity, when I said utility I meant supporting protection, not aggresive stuns and damage, and that was the focus of the build too
Kunkka reduces all damage his teammates take by 50% for 10 seconds (undispellable buff, unlike GA). Ofc they will take other 50% damage later, but they can't die from this "delayed" damage. If this is not protection then what is it?
P.S. The only problem with support Kunkka is that he is much higher skill cap than Omniknight.
In fact I'd like if BKB and blademail can be casted on allies too maybe with added recpie, longer cd or whatever...
that's for burst teamfights only, yes it's high skill cap, what about skirmishes that happen faster than your ult cd? Support kunkka isn't just high skill cap, it limits your teams' ability to take different kinds of fights too, you know the ones that last longer than 10 seconds and the ones that keep happening every 30 seconds. You've got no real support utility besides ulti, I'd like to know how you support besides doing cc afterwards
Omni might seem to have high ult cd but that's just cus it's much more potent especially with refresher and that's why my build suggest all these small cd items together with the small cd skills to compliment that, yes it is late game, yes the ulti doesn't do magical, but there's a single target skill and heal to take care of that, and did you look into mana pool of kunkka vs omni? if anyone can't afford greaves and refresher it's kunkka
a 360 hp heal every 10 second is no joke, your ult is great against enemy aoe lineup for sure, and omni ult is kinda meh except against aoe physical cleave which isn't THAT common( i mean how many couple heroes buy battlefury anyways), but 100% reduction for ANYONE can mean that much more vs a 50% reduc that then pays its debt 10seconds later like some kind of aoe oracle ult. It'd be nice if kunkka has heal skills like oracle but no..
and then a dispel every 14 second which is also a 12 second spell immunity although dispellable, and the ulti which is aoe physical immunity for 8 seconds at lvl 3...I mean even if kunkka is straight up 50% reduction it should be for a duration of 16 seconds to match, but only the damage scales...i guess it's very potent early game, but then early game big fights that require omni ult doesn't happen as often as the ulti cd anyways, and later with said items omni don't rely on that cd
you probably know this but check out attacker dota he's like some hot shit that plays kunkka he probably does some blink divine rapier build shenanigans not sure if you consider that fun
I'd definitely not suggest this omni build for a lineup lacking dps/lockdown
I think you don't understand what support Kunkka looks like. I'm very bad player, but you can at least get the idea from my video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-wdOs1Zx88
Kunkka keeps himself and his carry at full hp and mana during laning phase, almost not using courier at all (can be important sometimes) and also has some good spells that actually help you to make kills happen.
Omniknight is more oriented on late game, while Kunkka is about gaining early advantage.
yeah well I like a late game capable playstyle cus I am not aggresive, I can tell just from reading you are doing bottle shenanigans?
early game I don't like laning, if the lane is looking good I'd go jungling or start off jungling, if not I just push the lane out, roam for kills or at least zone out, secure runes etc
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Together i mean. and to build on that what heroes work with such a build +greaves +refresher for good measure
It's gotta be a really reallly high impact hero if not shut down which also has use for space for right clicking and spell spamming and doesn't need damage items to do so(together these items doesn't give much damage at all)