IG Ferrari has 65% win rate with Invoker in his lifetime playing at the top MMR.
Recent direct and indirect nerfs has made his invoker plummet to 52.4%
Invoker needs a spell at level 1.
Quas invoker should be given cold snap (Make snap unusable until creeps spawn for 30 seconds)
Wex Invoker should be given emp
Exort Invoker should be given sun strike
If you think Invoker is OP, why did one of the best Invoker player's win rate plummet by 13% in the last 3 months?
Meanwhile, his other 6 most played heroes perform outstandingly with 60-72% win rate.
Nice nerfing since 6.81, especially the cold snap reworked.
IMO, it was kinda OP when in good hands. Tornado + EMP damn cancer.
Ferrari isn't "one of the best invokers in the world" Ferrari is one of the best players in the world
well, I do find invoker is pretty balanced (or weak) now. I do find him weak in laning phase/late game compare to before the nerf. Movement speed, Alacrity, or EMP buff might be good. (like alacrity cooldown matching buff duration or EMP piercing magic immune at 50%).
Before the nerf, invoker could have won game easily even against strong opponents but now if you pick invoker against tough pick, it's going to be hard game. It became lot more 'Situational Pick' instead of instant pick invoker.
Well considering how long I've been playing invoker, what I feel balanced might be way too weak for majority of invoker player. nerf to pushing, double rune spawn, gold/EXP patch really hurted invoker as well. I wouldn't mention about cold snap/forged spirit nerf because it was way too strong before the nerf.
Only probable buff I think invoker might be getting would be alacrity buff. The only buff I'm wishing is EMP piercing magic immune at 50% effect but I doubt it's going to happen.
I'm pretty sure invoker is going to get buff in 6.84 or 6.85 but I doubt it's going to be anything big.
I do feel that he got way too many indirect nerfs on top of direct nerf over the months. It wouldn't have been so bad if there weren't so many indirect nerfs to invoker.
Invoker is still strong in mid game but nerf to pushing, gold/exp patch really favors late game.
I feel that getting scythe of vyse is much more important now than ever.
What??
Eul Invoker one of the most braindead playstyles that is one of the most success builds post 5k levels. It only doesn't work into 6k because your team drags you down whilst you're single target.
As it stands he has 1 strong build and the rest of his builds are situationally strong. What you're advocating is giving Invoker the capability to be universally strong in every situation.
Which is narcissism.
Maybe its not the weakness of invoker, but the strength of the type of gameplay and heroes that naturally work against him. He's still a really safe pick against a lot of teams, just not a bannable one.
keep in mind that Ferrari's invoker win rate may have dropped just because he reached a point where his mmr is higher then his skill with invoker. its possible that he improved more on other heroes, then he was able to with invoker thus his other win rates stayed the same but his invoker dropped when his rank went up. just because you can site one player who's invoker win rate dropped doesn't mean the hero needs a buff.
I mean really you have a 77% win rate with the hero in the last 3 months, sure its lower then your life time win rate but I bet your rank is a lot higher then it was when you had a 90% invoker win rate so what are you upset about, if you can win 77% of your invoker games at mid 5K(u r mid 5k right?) then what are you complaining about?
Yes, I considered a possibility that Ferarri improved his other heroes, but the disparity should not be as such:
52.4% for invoker and
60-72% for other most played heroes
Moreover, LGD.Yao's Invoker has dropped from 65% win rate to 60% win rate while his other most played heroes are all performing better.
while you are very talented and knowledgeable with Invoker, you are obviously biased, understandable so.
Icefrog doesn't balance heroes around a few players winrates going down while they are pubbing...
Not just a few players, Invoker's total win rate has dropped to 43%. Looks like it will drop to 42% since 6.83 is another big indirect nerf to Invoker.
^^^ it dropped from 65% all time to 62% last 3 months which is not irrelevant, but his over all win rate actually dropped more then 3%, he is just getting closer to his "real" rank its expected he will eventual get to a point where his monthly win rate is 50%, the more you win the better the players you are put against (or maybe shittyer team mates in his case). the better the players you are against the less you win, it will happen to every one with a positive win rate.
I get why you want your hero to be buffed, but he just doesn't seem under powered at the moment. you even have a really good win rate so there isn't a reason for YOU to be upset about him not getting buffed.
The statistics I used were all 6.82 and Invoker was tolerable then.
6.83, Invoker has fallen behind and it will show more drop in win rate.
I like how my point was completely ignored.
Could you perhaps read it and respond accordingly? Invoker's greatest strength is flexibility. It doesn't matter what sort of situation you throw at him because if you adjust, you will never ever lose full efficacy.
Conversely if you look at it that way, it makes sense if he was to be slightly weaker? Don't you think it would be absurd if you brought him up to par with other nukers when you need a nuker or a cc-machine up to par with other cc-machines when you need it?
His strength is his flexibility. He can offlane, he can mid, he can go semi-carry, he can go full cc, he can go for crazy burst. A jack of all trades should stay as a jack of all trades. He shouldn't even be a Queen much less an Ace of all trades.
Shredder, if you think my suggestion makes Invoker too strong, which part?
Cold snap at level 1 or Sunstrike, or both?
Please elaborate on why you think it will make Invoker an Ace of all trades.
Sunstrike shouldn't matter much (nice to have though for those level 1 skirmishes) and level 1 EMP sounds downright retarded but surely you understand how broken level 1 cold snap is?
He could lane everywhere then lol, people don't tri him at all because he's downright useless level 1 and it takes ages to go to level 2 in a tri but coldsnap would make him viable for aggressive tris.
You'd get disgustingly easy level 1 ganks on mid as well.
It wouldn't make sense if he had access to sunstrike/emp and not cold snap if you wanted to balance it. And wouldn't it be very clunky if you obtained spells wouldn't having "Invoke", like sort of contradictory? Thats nitpicking lore wise though.
I dunno, Invoker has a ridiculously high skill cap and I'm sure that noone has yet to master him. Look at other players like Cook, he invoked at badass speeds and makes flashy plays but he often randomly casts shit like sunstrike in some giant wombo combo and it does nothing because the person already died or something...
op's autism is showing
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"The force is strong with this one"
edit: on topic
I think the bounty rune patch made him a little weaker in mid, because the other mid herщ is most likely always getting a rune (unless you manage to deny with Forge spirit) that's about it.
Also, it kind of pointless to compare Invoker winrates of Black to Ferrari, you can't induce anything from 1 figure, you don't know if they are stacking or playing solo queue, you can't possibly know if they first picked invoker 10 games in a row or if they last pick it when there are no counters. I guess you can look at their games individually, but then again they are not even playing the same role, I've seen Black play Invoker safelane and Ferrari is most likely gonna mid...
NO, invoker was barely touched. Reason why he fell of is nerf to any kind of push. He is still strong, but just not fitting this meta as it is.
Invoker is still an extremely strong hero. His strength is his flexibility and he still has that in abundance. I personally find the hero still has a greater impact than most in dota just because how many different roles he can play :
up against mana dependent heroes? use emp
up against squisheys? use euls, meteor, blast, sunstrike build
need an auto attacker? get alacrity and damage items
need an initiator? get blink and tornado
He fills that adaptable role very well.
One pro player dropping in win rate with one character does not justify a buff for the entire community.
according to the bottom of the page... it is OP. Still invoker is plenty op already so no buffs thx
Dude I like you and all, but this is one of the most stupid ways of thinking ever. So just because a hero didn't get buffed, he got indirectly nerfed because other heroes got buffed? So in every patch Icefrog has to buff every hero or it won't be a balanced patch.
I gotta agree with Sam on this one. Great invoker player, but way, way too much self talking shit. Everybody knows you rock with invo, no need to spam crappy thread to prove it.
Also, you post on db, where there are 30 good people that answer threads, and 50 smurf craps which only spam and trash talk it.
you should be aware by now that girmorum is a fucking moron. he has been this way for a very long time now. Back when Invoker was king of mid lane, and TA started becoming a popular counter, he made a thread complaining about how TA was OP because she could beat Invoker mid, never mind that Invoker was crushing every other mid hero and was a top pick in competitive.
Just look at his reasoning here, even though that Invoker is getting picked quite a bit as a counter to several heroes with the QW + Orchid rush build and can also run the OP euls + shit combo, one particular player has a 50% over 30 games, disregarding the quality of his opposition and how useless stats are in such a small sample size where his win rate with the hero doesn't necessarily reflect his impact on the win or loss (ie. team mates feeding). You can't pick out stats like that, you could find plenty of games where he has made no impact on the game with some other heroes and still won, and with such a small sample, it changes the numbers a lot.
You can't cherry pick stats like this, pretty much everyone that has passed primary school should understand that. I could easily find plenty of "evidence" of a very similar nature and use that to back any sort of argument that I want.
Invoker is in a good spot at the moment, and is still fairly flexible with 3 good builds that cover a decent amount of situations.
Actually Invoker is in the borderline of useless in the actual metagame, I used to play invoker every single game in DotA, when I migrated to Dota2, he still good for a while, now I haven't played him for like 8 months, because he's just bad.
There is no point in mastering a hero which have 10 spells, to be outclassed for any other hero in the game which only have 4 spells...
You guys can say all day it's the ''cost'' of the flexibility of the hero, but in a real game, you can do any function, but you will do only ONE function, because is a team game you know? So it's a totally a waste..
I guess I have been too obsessed with Invoker and have been biased for too long.
For the record, I didn't cherry pick stats to make it look a certain way. I just looked at ferrari's invoker win rate over the last 3 months. Invoker is a decent pick, but I think he does not fit in this meta.
@Daath, that is because you are bad, and not just with invoker. Stop trying to use your shitty experience to evaluate a hero, plenty of people have had a lot of success with the hero and he is being used in competitive games with acceptable success as well.
The flexibility of the hero is good because you can choose the play style that best suits the game, and that is all that matters. You don't randomly pick a build, certain builds are much better than others, the QW orchid build was absolutely wrecking plenty of top picks late in 6.82, where the more popular EQ build would have been a lot less effective against those specific lineups.
@Grimorum, that is still cherry picking. Plenty of others at a similar skill level have retained a similar win rate in 6.82 as compared to their overall. 31 games is a very small sample, plenty of those games were against top stacks and a lot of games were lost because of someone else feeding, you need a really large sample to say anything.
And yes he is a decent pick, is that not ok? What makes you think that every hero should be pushed to the top of the meta? There has almost always been a small pool of heroes that have dominated the competitive scene, and it rotates every now and then. Invoker will still be picked infrequently because he is a very good counter to a lot of popular picks like brew and ember. As far as pubs go, QW is still effective against a lot of lineups, and the two EQ builds (necro3 rush or euls) are both a lot more popular and again, very good. Although I think a lot of top invoker players have their own playstyle which they stick to
Offtopic: Does anyone have a good guide to QW (aka 4spell boys) invoker to someone who wants to start playing the hero? From what I've seen in my games QW seems stronger and more fun to play.
I have seen this website called "invokergame.com" or something but I would love a good guide or a Dotabuff of someone who plays QW a lot.
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Let's examine IG.Ferrari, one of the best Invokers in the world: http://www.dotabuff.com/players/88585077
In the last 3 months, Ferrari only has a 52.4% win rate with Invoker
Meanwhile, Ferrari's most played heroes: Storm, Ember, Tinker, QoP, Pudge, and TA all have 60-72% win rate over the last 3 months.
Ferrari's signature hero is doing more poorly than his other most played heroes.
Ferrari's Pudge is performing better than his Invoker...
The statistics I used were all 6.82 and Invoker was tolerable then.
6.83, Invoker has fallen behind and it will show more drop in win rate.