Okay, I'll stop maxing ward as you told me.
I'm sorry for the earlier games I've ruined doing this build.
As you said it's situational (although it's right %99 of the time) but you are behaving it like it's worst shit ever. Get over it, just because on your allies was retarded doesn't make the build bad.
Venomancer can pee on most heroes when their bkb are over.
Veil + agah, and watch everyone suffer in inimaginable pain.
If you are farmed enough, you will always be able to survive till their bkb are over, and continue to kite them afterward
http://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/venomancer/builds
The numbers don't lie, maxing Gale first actually has the lowest success rate.
In fact, Level 1 Poison Sting has pretty good numbers even.
Still, when I pick Veno I pick him to gale the fuck out of TA
An interesting thing about Veno is how bad his level 1 ultimate is compared to the level 2 and 3. He effectively just stacks another ulti onto his ulti effectively. XPM is crucial on this hero
funny how in your second-latest game you had a venomancer maxing wards and lost. instead of ranting here go to his steam profile and post a comment complaining about his skillbuild there
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198093306605
also by your logic jakiros should be maxing q over e because it slows, it's got damage over time and it's aoe.
and a bad player being unable to utilise a good build doesn't make the build bad
strongly believe in 1-1-3 at level 5 picking up gale and sting at level 1 or 2. Interchangeable if you're harassing in lane or somehow find an early kill opportunity.
![[Lk].Zano](https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/b9/b98e01ce6ef4a5e926a44cdd1564d0e8e5fbfa36_full.jpg "[Lk].Zano")
Or you can max sting for 320 dmg with every auto attack. Gale is a long cooldown and the dmg sucks at level 1 and 2. The only reason to go gale first is when combined with another hero (trilane preferably) and you know you are going for first blood. For normal support veno maxing sting is way better for lane control.
I agree the level 1 and 2 wards kind of suck, but the level 3 and 4 ones are awesome so unfortunately you have to give up something to get there.
All of his shit is potent, he has no best skill, all dependent on what you're trying to do.
wow thats like saying nothing, all heroes skills are all potent, dependent on what u are doing
i am talking about offlane veno here.
If u wan to refer to my point, fine, but don't take it out of context
wards veno > gale veno when he is left in the offlane
remember his heart > skadi on meepo thread
then devilish who's far more accomplished at meepo than OP makes a thread saying the complete opposite
What if no one tries to gank offlane? What if your mid comes down to gank and you can use vale to secure a kill? What if enemy team underestimates your dmg and you're able to string + gale and run away while they die?
It's not the same as saying all hero skills are equally good depending on what you're doing, because some are only good for a very few specific things and will almost never be the best choice for points like anti mages magic resist past 1 point in it. And others on some heroes are clear winners and you almost always max them first like wolves on lycan.
^haha not true. Lycan can have a flexible skill build and sometimes would want to max howl over wolves.
The skills I would say need to be maxed at 7 is like:
Sand King Burrowstrike
Pudge Hook
Disruptor Glimpse
Bane Sap
Brewmaster Stomp
Magnus Shockwave
Luna Beam
PA Dagger
Visage Nuke
Zues Bolt
burrowstrike doesnt have to be maxed by 7, lv 8 only requires 600 xp while 9 requires 1200
you can go 2-3-0-0 for faster farming and still have max burrow without giving your opponents a really long timing window where your stun isnt maxed. look at fy
the other ones i agree with though
Bane sap is usually maxed at 7 OR 8
Dependign if you use bane as setup for kill or if you just make the lane autolose for enemy mid (as support) you get lvl 1-2 Enfeeble
Sandking is also on that matter just that he farms his dagger in jungle and 1 lvl in standstorm at lvl 5 is 50% dmg increase and with dagger the range is not as needed.
Also if veno maxes gale hes a one hit wonder, Whilst wards contrbute to permanent annoyance. Also wards and sting are the worst at low levels, so they usually get more attention early. The gale damage is negligable as it is a slow dot and a tango reduces incoming damage by 50% already
I've never seen anyone max anything other than wolves first, nor have I done so. I don't agree with half your list, but regardless my point was saying veno's skills are all really good and just about equally powerful/useful given your situation is completely different than making a blanket statement about all heroes.
@andro
http://www.dotabuff.com/topics/2014-05-24-meepo-help
Op and his strength>agil and meepo doesn't need agil argument and how we should stack reavers on meepo, and any agil items are stupid. The thing is, it's funny how each time he makes comments he makes it with such great conviction that he is always right. And in so.many threads when he post, in what appears to be a suggestion(like the concede button one) thread, when someone post a slight disagreement he will never fail to jump in and flame the guy. What's the point of posting threads then if all you want is people to agree with you?
I don't mean to be harsh but from someone who plays venomancer a lot both competitively and in public games maxing the gale over wards is just bad. Yes everything is situational but venomancer isn't really all the complex and its more the items and build then anything else really.
The gale is only for the slow and the wards help maintain this as well as steady dps, slow, and damage over time in fights as well as the available to push should you need to. Yes every now and then its good to mix things up or fun to do so but it may not always be the best.
http://www.dotabuff.com/esports/players/90503334/matches?date=&faction=&hero=venomancer&duration=
http://www.dotabuff.com/players/90503334/matches?date=&faction=&hero=venomancer&lobby_type=&game_mode=®ion=&duration=
OLD and needs to be updated but... http://www.dotabuff.com/topics/2014-02-21-yes-ooh-ah--a-havoc-badgers-guide-to-playing-the-toxic-one-
^
I'm not saying you are wrong, but the reason i hate veno is because he has a really mana expensive spell that is a skill shot and we are suppose to keep it level 1. Not to mention it has a FLAT non scaling mana cost, so you get no value from keeping it at level 1, and it is on a HUGE cooldown. and the spell tappers and doesn't keep the 50% slow over time.
About the only decent thing about it is that the spell last 15 seconds.
I absolutely hate level 1 venomous gale.
> so you get no value from keeping it at level 1
50% slow at all levels
what you get from levelling the ability is unreliable damage
however, levelling poison sting gives you more damage and slow and can reliably be applied from range by wards, and levelling wards gives you more damage, as well as better pushing (result of the higher damage)
also for the increase in damage of gale to be worth it, it is largely dependent on you hitting multiple people with it, and it is rarely the case where you get 4-5 people clumping together where you can hit your gale on all of them. if you use it to initiate on 1-2 targets maybe you get a few hundred extra damage off, but increasing levels your other abilities would have also increased your damage dealt, on top of offering you more (more slow from poison sting, and more hero/tower damage from wards)
if targets dont clump however, having the extra points into poison sting and wards can and probably will result in more damage being dealt, if over a long period of time, since you can keep spamming plague wards down and ensure that every enemy gets poison sting applied to them.
i think the general consensus is that you'll have poison sting maxed before 11 regardless of what build you go. if you're going for a full nuker build you want the extra damage of sting coupled with gale, and getting wards without any points into sting isn't that good of an idea. and if you're going for a ward focused build, wards will deal more damage because they'll apply a higher rank poison sting. with that in mind, one of your other basic abilities, will have to take less focus.
you don't want 1 point into wards because they're actually useless at lv 10, since they'll die in 1 hit, feeding the enemy gold and XP, and that also means that your hero will have to put himself in danger in order to apply poison sting. but only having 1 point into gale isn't as bad as having rank 1 wards because you'll still get the full benefit of the slow, and you have stronger wards doing increased damage, as well as living long enough to apply poison sting on possibly multiple targets, which makes up for the damage lost from gale.
all of venos abilities obviously get better with more levels like with any hero, but gale is the only one of his 4 that does not *need* more levels into it, because one of it's effects is constant at all ranks, whereas all the traits of sting and wards are dependent on levels (sting: slow, damage and duration, wards: damage and HP), meaning upgrading sting or wards will upgrade 2 or 3 of their respective stats while upgrading gale only upgrades 1 stat, it's damage.
gale is like laser on tinker. yes laser is a good nuke that benefits from levels, but it's the only basic ability of tinker that's useful with only 1 point into it, because it has one effect that is constant at all levels, the 100% blind for 3 seconds. so if you max rockets and march first, then you have 3 useful abilities (march, rockets and laser's blind), whereas if you max laser (or in the case of veno, you max gale), then one of your basic abilities is worthless.
the comparisons don't end there. march and wards are both good for defending against pushes as well as farming, rockets deal safe damage from range just like a ward applying poison sting from range, while gale and laser tend to only be maxed first when attempting to snowball from kills. if this doesn't work out then you have no farming mechanism to comeback, making the build riskier than just maxing W+E instead.
You should get at least level 2 in gale and not leave it at 1 ~lvl 11. If i recall the DoT from gale is lethal, no reason not to get level 2 for the additional lethal instances.
you don't get 50% gale at all levels. you get gale that starts at 50% slow and continuously diminishes as the spell goes on.
Does anyone else find the gale radius to be really small? I mean it has to be like fully centered on a target to hit them it seems. A lot of times it looks like the icon grazes your target but lo and behold, no debuff applied.
Btw this kinda reminds me of gyro and someone complaining about not maxing homing missile cus it's a 500 dmg nuke after all.
"and you guys play it like shit with becoming a perma-farming support or split push to die and split push to die."
Yeah, I like how every1 ignored that. Most pub support Venomancers completely forsake their team for ages because they have a "I have Wards I muz farm 24/7 huehuehue". You use it to scout and block routes, you protect towers. Not camp the jungle or push into t2 and die.
And yes, Wards are more situational than people like to think. If you don't have a lineup that compliments it, all wards do is a really slow siege on enemy towers that fucks anyone farming in your lane. Its a great early game spell but it loses its usefulness really fast. Fact is most pub lineups can't make use of this tiny fuckin' window. Mid/late game you pretty much use that shit to get vision and proc the slow. Level 1 ward does the same shit bro.
The difference between level 1 ward and level 4 ward is 28 dmg per hit. The difference between level 1 gale and level 4 gale is 425 damage. The health of the wards? Like I said, unless you're using it to push towers, its a wasted skill. If you use it to zone, you'll end pushing the lane and giving the offlaner exp and robbing your carry of creeps.
Similar to what you said Andro, the effect you get from level 1 ward (slow+vision) remains static at all levels, so fun to use your exact words on you. Its still bloody dayuuuum useful at level 1 for procing slows, cutting off enemies and scouting.
So many times I see support not pumping gale and missing so many kills because he's instead pushing the lane into the enemy t1 ruining the farm.
But hey, whatever I just said, some smartass like Andro's gonna come ignore everything and talk about another part of Venomancer.
"Similar to what you said Andro, the effect you get from level 1 ward (slow+vision) remains static at all levels,"
Wards - "Wards gain the Poison Sting level from Venomancer"
Sting - "SLOW: -11% / -12% / -13% / -14% and DoT 5 / 10 / 15 / 20"
Also name a scenario where wards are situational and I will debunk it, I am not trying to put you down but you're obviously upset at someone who played veno badly and you feel like it was his skiling that was wrong and not how he played it.
you get less vision if the ward dies sooner
and level 1 ward feeds more gold due to being easier to kill. level 4 wards give more xp than lv 1s but they require more effort to kill.
its damn useful at level 1 for feeding gold is what it is
> all wards do is a really slow siege on enemy towers
wards are meant for pushing, lol
its funny how you say wards lose usefulness early fast yet a static damage nuke doesn't. if you bothered reading the entirety of what i wrote instead of cherrypicking specific things and wording them to suit your argument, you'll find that only one stat improves on gale, which is the damage. yes the vision range of wards is the same at all levels, but levelling it still benefits multiple stats of the ward, which is damage, health, as well as indirect stats such as the gold they feed. sometimes people will outright ignore them because they're not worth the damage taken for 16 gold.
the difference of 28 damage per hit is per ward, per attack each ward makes. you're going to be planting multiple wards which are going to be attacking multiple times, so that any enemy in the early game won't be able to come close to the wards without taking 250+ guaranteed damage. unless they're sniper. and wards will add poison sting to heroes that would be impossible to do with your actual hero unless you were trying to intentionally feed. so it's not 28 damage, it's 28 damage and poison sting damage on top of that.
if you want to explain how I changed the subject about another part of venomancer, be my guest. you're talking about his 3 basic abilities, so am I.
it's funny how you're talking about me ignoring things when as usual you cherrypick and twist my statements. I'm supposed to be the smartass, because I'm the one feels the need to make these shitty threads seeking validation thinking I'm always right and that everyone elses opinion is wrong, and I know better than 6k players who can play their heroes to a masterful level. you're honestly equally delusional and retarded as hael
As someone who has played a lot of games against venomancer...level 1 and 2 wards are food. I will farm them for gold at level 1.
But level 3 and 4 wards? Fuck, that's too much work for something that's hitting me with aids the entire time.
I agree with OP maxing first spell, and ulti once 6 is devastating. You just need a bracer or mana boots for the combo.
Early wards are only good for jungling.
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Can ya'll stop with the max ward build. That shit is fuckin' situational and you guys play it like shit with becoming a perma-farming support or split push to die and split push to die.
Your Q is one of the best fucking early game spells!!!!! IT DOES 550 DMG AND SLOWS. Its like a fucking miniature AoE viper ultimate you idiots!
In the first place, Venomancer's an early game support. Stop building him for late, like rushing Aghs and Blink and doing nothing like farming before that. Stop not adding 1st skill and going a 0-2-3-0 build at level 5. You wanna farm nonstop and have late game impact? Get a Tide or SK. Stop ruining games. Stop making yourself lose.