^
^
500 mmr differecne is something.
I've played some matches on my friends acc, he is 2900 MMR, this is what happens:
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/892361665
Even with that retarded build, I managed to hold my own against them because I really felt like I'm the best player on the map, and I could really use that advanatage.
Another example is this:
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/894867796
I've failed a bit against bristle. Tinker was good, and I've managed to come-back and we easily finished game.
500 MMR is something.
I have no problem. Higher mmr does not makes you a better person.
This is a forum, if you want to talk, talk. If you want to say bullshits, youcan do it, but i don't give a fuck. Have a nice day.
I'm saying I don't see how it's a problem. If the one guy's solo mmr is 3k and his party is 3400 then he is probably being carried by the guy he groups with but collectively they are a 3300 average. Some people play better with friends, making coordinated picks etc. So who cares? Are your part and solo ratings identical? You're just mad cus you lost a game and feel like X player is to blame and shouldn't have been matched with you but truth is some other retard would've taken his spot and you lose and blame him anyway. I mean when you win games like that do you go looking up the guy to carried to see if his mmr matches his party mmr to place credit there?
just go post this shit on reddit or playdota you stupid fucking shit!
we dont give a shit here. HAVE A BAD FUCKING DAY
I do think that solo mmr should be only against solo players, but anyway most of my solo games everyone is solo so ...
^
I love you too.
Timberwolf, you still don't get me.
It's not about my games, I've won or I have lost, it does not matter.
Tinker was 4.1k solo and he was in my team, and I still do complain.
I really belive that games are getting harder when you're supposed to play with sub3k team-mates because they'll probably in solo dropdown to 2k. And skill difference is there.
I just think that they need to do something about that, but hey, that's just my opinion.
It does not matter if I play against 4k solo player as 3.5k mmr player because he's in party and his actual party raiting is about 3.5k, or I play with him.
I think that matches are one-sided sometimes because of that. that's all.
^
I agree with you.
Party mmr is stupid thing, because of party mmr, we have games like I've said.
Of course, if you're 5k mmr player it doesnt matter, you'll be able to win sub4k-3k games no matter what happens.
But if you're not that good, and you want to improve, it's really harder when you have to play with players 500 mmr less raiting.
I just think that solo games should be solo games, or if they want to let people party in your solo game, they should do something about solo-mmr number of players in party..
MMR is fair if Team X MMR = Team Y MMR
You think 500MMR is a big gap? I played with 3700MMR players the other week. I'm 6800.
That was during weird hours when few players are online, then it can sometimes throw me in trashy games like that.
To be remember is though that the game was STILL nicely balanced, because my team was mostly 3700 while enemyteam
was mostly 4300-4400MMR.
Guess what? These games are not freewins. They are actually hard, as every single teammate is worse than every single opponent, and that presents itself quite clearly in most of those type of games.
To give something for you to think about: Whining about how not everyone in the game is EXACTLY at your mmr is futile.
You know how long queuetimes you would get to try and match that? 30-minutequeue times for people at majority-MMR's like yours, and impossible MM for people at the extreme ends.
Just accept that the matchmaking is not the problem, you (all of us playing) are the problem.
Also, for people who think the system is broken or whatever, there's never gonna be a matchmaking system for a 5v5 game that takes into account wether someone is mad, upset, drunk, otherwise underperforming for his MMR. Same thing other way around, some days people play way better than they normally do.
10people in every game you play, including yourself.
Chances are high someone will not perform "average" in each and every game, but rather fluctuate a bit.
Im taking this opportunity to tell Waga:
Hello, Waga.
I donated some ***$ last time you streamed,
could you possibly realize how much I donated?
ddsama if you did donate, then thank you! I dont know under what name you donated, so I couldnt know how much!
Is party rating really that bad? If someone has a higher party rating, it could be because they work with friends better than they play alone. Maybe the person you mentioned isn't as good mechanically (although frankly I don't see there being that much of a difference between 3k and 3.5k skillwise either) but they made up for it by being able to coordinate lane kills better or bringing a better attitude or something. That's pretty much what party mmr means - how well they do with friends. If that person got matched in a 3k game as a party, chances are their coordination or whatever it was that got them their higher party mmr would give them an unfair advantage over other 3k players.
I´m dissapoint3d22.
Anyway, hope you´re doing good in life and I´m looking forward to meet you in the TI7 finals!
"it could be because they work with friends better than they play alone."
I am 4125 party, 3600 solo and i am way better in solo than in stacks.
I dont think party mmr means much .....
Yeah but think about it, why would the rating be different between party and solo? There has to be a reason, or else party/solo would stay the same.
Like wisp spammers for instance, surely it would make sense that there's a different party and solo rating for them?
The difference between 3k and 3.5k is there. Mainly because people coming from 2k to sub 3k, and people from 3.5k might come from higher 3k or sub 4k.
Let me tell you, there is difference between sub3k and high 3k/sub4k.
Sure, for 5k or high 4k player it doesnt matter, but for lower-tier players actually it does.
Waga, I'm not trying to cry about my games, therefore, I don't see why would you point-out my plays?
It's not about me, I know how good or how bad I am. I'm not claiming that I'm 5k rated player somehow stuck between 3k and 4k.
In fact, I know I'm where I belong, and I know i have room for improvment and eventualy, I will be able to break famous 3k bracket into some higher shit.
But the problem is, I don't care about your raiting, or raiting of other people. There is always someone better then you.
Of course, I know that 6.8k is really high, and because of that, you have my respect for your mmr, but still, the topic is all about talking about mmr, not about me trying to cry-whine-or whatever how bad MMR is.
I came to ask, not to cry.
To all people, thank you for your time and exponation, I think Waga is mostly right about what he's tallking about.
Gotta go to sleep.
Bye people.
I still think mm would be better if mmr was transparent.
it wouldn't completely solve the problem, but it wouldn't hurt either.
dual stacks in solo are actually quite a problem tho.
for example, playing on page 4 (which is like 5100 average mmr) where 2 of my friends are in another team both 6k+ but with 5200 party rating. and to top it all off another guy with them also 6k+ starting with his smurf at 5300ish. so essentially completely skewed game in their favour and super easy stomp (-29) because my team had higher average where 2 guys were stacked at 5500ish while their solo was barely 5k if that even. perhaps system has no way of separating those games but it was just a terrible matching.
or my last game I won +40 solo because I stomped s4 and notail stacking together. how is that fair for the other 3 people on their team?
Smaller pool of player = bigger gap between individual MMR in a team
My solo MMR is 4.6k, how the fuck did I get matched vs Era(he had 5800)?
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/899604325
^
I think it's that.
I'm at 3.5k atm, and I got matched against 3.8k players, we also had meppo 3.2k, their Slark was 3k and so on..
The game was actually balalced...
I agree with the OP Inflated ratings in solo que with 2 stacks is really annoying. That 3.8k & 3.0k player in 3.5k mmr game is really just imbalanced, especially if that 3.8k player plays support and that 3.0k player doesn't know how to 5v5 or even 3v3.
Something like this happen everyday, bro
especially when you queue in weird hours
example:
vs 5k party
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/822518417
[IMG]http://i60.tinypic.com/fxz252.jpg[/IMG]
vs 5k solo
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/822437901
[IMG]http://i59.tinypic.com/2hn5ikg.jpg[/IMG]
It always happens at certain hours in certain server
I got another example but too lazy to take screenshot
I took these because i was quite satisfied with the result
It's not like they are invincible
They also do stupid mistake just not as often as us
I used to have 700 gap between my solo and party (solo being 3k and party 3.7k) and we won more than half of our duo stack games up to that point. My mate also got 500higher party rating than solo. And guess what... none of us ever plays solo queue. We started with 50% winrate on our solo=party mmr than improved. Both mechanically and as a "team". Then we went up a lot, winning 60%+ for a while. But solo mmr stayed the same mainly couse we never even queued for that.
Other aspects of this are already explained by waga so not gonna type those.
invincible*
bot should just do an average of solo/party for people playing in duo stacks to balance it a bit better.
The people you could actually complain about are TBD, they can be so fucking bad (but I dont complain because once you get a bad tbd in your team, once he is in the enemy's team)
Anyway, once we had a slardar going safe, someone told him to rush BKB. He literally rushed it right away, he had ONLY stout shield and bkb at some point. At this point I knew he is terrible and then... he builts crystalis. The end of the match I look up slardar - TBD
There's no problem with high spreads in games, as long as each team has about the same average. Valve can't increase the player pool whenever you play.
The only annoying thing is to support someone that is far below the average because he stacked with someone higher. Most of the time it's wasted and you'd be better off trying to get some farm yourself or helping other lanes more.
TBD players are the usual smurf problem. If you get 4+ in the same game, there's like a 90% chance it will be over after 10 minutes. Some smurfs are overrated and some are underrated.
3k and 3.5k on a team is almost the same. Cus rest of team will be like 3200 and the average will be like 3200-3300. The difference of one player will hardly be noticable as the overall team comps are extremely similar.
The ONLY time it's an issue is when there's a huge ringer on one team that goes mid and absolutely crushes it cus your worst player was there. Like a 4k invoker vs a 3k player who doesn't know how to mid. That's the only time I've noticed a big gap having any noticeable impact and that's rare.
Things like these are pretty common now since Valve decided to force 3 stacks to play with 2 stacks.
http://i.imgur.com/AAUxNdB.jpg
I understand why they did it (solo players typically don't want to be matched with parties) but it basically screwed over stacking yet again (last time they removed 4 man stacking).
Haha he has point thoo, I was 3.6k long time ago but I dropped to 2.9k playing like shit and got stuck here, there is a skill difference...
Btw bring back 'dont match me with patries' option volvo plz :O
Ofc there is, it's just 6k can't notice it, because of their skill-level.
500 MMR is nothing, when you put it like a number, but as I said, sub3k might come from c limbing all the way from the 2.5k.
3.5k or higher, peope might come from higher 3k or lower 4k bracket.
Matching them with sub3k players makes a big skill difference, and it often happens that sub 3k players have +500 higher party raiting then solo, and it can screw the games when they pick Rubick, goes on feeding-spree 1/213131, and you're supposed to carry them to the victory.
Ofc, when some 5k or 6k shit!(if they can call us 3k scrubs, I'll call them 5k-6k shits) reads this, he's like:
"WEL DUDE, GIT GUD, IC NOT JUR TIM MEJTS, U NOOB!"
But the fact is, I know it's not my-team mates, and I know if I'm really better then my team I'd be able to carry them 80% of the time, but for fucks sake, I KNOW I'm not that good!
I CANT carry games when some Rubick goes 1/15 and feeds their Pudge or some shit, because I, by myself, DO MAKE mistakes, and when I have no room for them, yeah, I pretty much lose game.
That's why I'm 3.5k, and not 6.5k, and I'm aware of it.
The same goes for guy who actually has 2.9-3k raiting and got matched against 3.5k-3.6k-3.7k players. He just feeds them most of the time, and games can be one-sided because of that.
For example: if he feeds their Juggernout, it doesn't matter if they also have sub-3k player, because it's already over.
And it's gamble. One game they feeed, another game your team feeds them.
So yeah, because of that, 500 mmr can be something.
People are trying to explain to you that it's just going to get worse and you better get used to it. Over 4k, you're happy if there's only a 500 mmr range, over 5k you're happy if the range isn't over 800, at 6k you're happy if the range isn't over 1.5k, at 7k you're happy if you can get your TA.
In short, suck it up, 500 mmr isn't a big gap and team mmr = other team mmr or close to
500 mmr is only noticeable until 4.3k or some shit like that, i see no difference between a 4.6k and a 4.1k player, mechanically wise they're pretty much the same, the 4.6k probably has better awareness and is a more solid player but its not like the 4.1k can't beat the 4.6k one
even at 4k's its easy to get matched with 5.5k players. i got matched 4 times (in like 30 matches) with 6k players while playing on a 4.2k account. you think its fair for me to go mid vs a 6k player? well, maybe it isnt but somewhere in the map there is a 6k player on my team playing versus another 4k so it kinda balances it out
If 4.5k is matched with 6.5k I can understand that. There is difference between beign better and beign worst by mile.
The point is: 2.9k vs 3.8k (for example) - and 4.5k vs 5.5k = very larg gap between skill.
Sleave, I think there IS difference between 4.1 and 4.6k ,beceause 4.1k might come from high 3k, and 4.6k might come from sub5k or even higher.
I understand you dont try to whine and you want to understand how it's fair, simple question really.
As I said, if Team X has collective MMR value: "N" and Team Y also has collective MMR value N, the game is balanced.
Fair and square, as simple as it could possibly be.
OP you´re inconsistent in your arguements, just look at what you´re saying.
"If 4.5k is matched with 6.5k I can understand that. There is difference between beign better and beign worst by mile.
The point is: 2.9k vs 3.8k (for example) - and 4.5k vs 5.5k = very larg gap between skill."
Read that again, and think about what point you´re trying to make.
Let me tell you, 3 or 3.5k, 3.5 or 4k, its ________NOT________ a massive difference in skill. It's not absurd, it's not weird, it's fully normal that you as a 3.5k player will play both with and against 3000 or 4000MMR players.
Keep in mind, because I think this has completely gone by you-> MMR matches TEAMS, not individuals.
There's no need for each player in the game to be within the same 100's of MMR (i.e 3500 only play with 3401-3599, or whatever point you´re stretching for) it would mean INSANE increase in queuetimes.
Anyway, have a good day!
I still want the option back to play with 9 other soloplayers. I had my best games during this time and getting grouped up with 2 or 3man stacks tryharding and failing with some herocombinations they have seen in progames is annoying.
This would at least help with one problem, there are others but this is the most annoying at least for me.
waga stream a few houra earlier please. it's always dawn in my country when you start. ;(
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For example:
I go solo mmr, my rating is let's say 3.5k.
Some guys have party of 2, their party mmr is let's say 3470.
After I add that guy, I saw that he actually has solo MMR of flat 3k(3040).
How is that fair? It's almost 500 MMR difference, and I really think they should return option "don't match me with partys" or whatever.
Another example is:
I've played Solo MMR in which guys partied with some friend, they had like 3.4k mmr.
It turns out that a guy played Tinker and beat the shit-out of Invoker-mid.
I was wondering if he's really 3.4-3.5k mmr player, and I was right that he's not.
He's got solo mmr 4100, party mmr 3400...
The point is:
If 2 dudes party together, they can have pretty large gap between their solo mmr and party mmr..