General Discussion

General DiscussionBloodrage

Bloodrage in General Discussion
MLG Quickscoper 420 Kushlord

    I want to start by saying this:
    This is not a rage thread and I am certainly not mad, just an observation I made.

    It seems like bloodrage is too good. I think it was the wrong way to buff bloodseeker because he is still crap in most cases, but counters a few heroes really really hard now. I don't think you should be able to apply it through bkb, and I think it should be purgable. The drawback makes it balanced in most cases, but makes it a really hard counter to some things. I am referring specifically to the early/mid game weaver matchup. Until you do enough damage to punish the steroid, it makes you a free kill all the time. What do you guys think?

    h.u.r.g.

      You can't cast it on people with BKB already up I thought.

      J-Man

        Or you can always get the oldschool tricks of traveling in pairs and have TP scrolls handy. That would certainly help.

        MLG Quickscoper 420 Kushlord

          @discodude
          yup you are right my b

          @soul eater
          it makes it a lot more difficult to farm if you are relying on being near uncooperative teammates. And if someone with a disable is walking around with bloodseeker, you can't tp

          Z__

            Uh, maybe don't play weaver against a bs? ROFL.
            The only thing that is a little imbalanced about him is his silence.

            MLG Quickscoper 420 Kushlord

              yeah i picked before him. I just feel like they could have reworked him in a different way, like maybe replace that trashcan ult

              h.u.r.g.

                Trashcan ult is super strong against melee teams.

                sleave

                  ' The only thing that is a little imbalanced about him is his silence. '

                  also known as BLOOD RAGE, LOL, which is what OP is talking about....................................................................................................................................................................

                  J-Man

                    You're kinda in the negative to be talking about OP, Chronic.....

                    efextoide

                      135 gold to counter bloodseeker

                      Androgynous

                        no one said bloodrage op, and being where you're at after 2400 games is hardly any better than chronic.

                        anyways

                        linkens wasnt needed that game since they had too many low-value single target spells break it, and a spirit breaker counter linkens if his teammates arent stupid, since charge is a global cancel, then the BS can solo you. seeing as you had a high amount of deaths it looks like the spell block didnt do you much good.

                        a bkb first item wouldve helped vs most of their damage early which is magical, rikis silence which also counters weaver pretty hard.

                        butterfly synergises with bloodrage, making bloodraging you not a very good idea. that is probably the only way you are going to get a bloodseeker to not bloodrage you, when the benefit of silencing outweighs the downside of giving weaver something like 150 extra damage.

                        satanic would've helped you to stand your ground and fight, which is your only option when they can easily break your linkens and you can't outrun a bs, rather than buying manta or linkens, and then the other 6k couldve gone towards butterfly, completing daedelus, or getting a mid game desolator.

                        manta basically does nothing, there is only tinker rockets to disjoint, and only decrepify to dispel, and you're lacking on stats.

                        with satanic + butterfly in the late game, plus other stuff like the crit or a deso instead, on top of your bkb the enemy cant do shit. if you're bkbed, there's only rupture against you, which does nothing when you can stand your ground with satanic and also time lapse if you need to, and if you're not bkbed so you're silenced, then you're hitting like a truck and you can't be killed with what is basically 50% lifesteal when you have double damage and satanic.

                        MLG Quickscoper 420 Kushlord

                          Thanks for the info! I was regretting the manta and building satanic in the end. The reason I went for a linkens is because if bloodseeker was 1v1 vs me, I could take him, probably not worth I guess.

                          Androgynous

                            "rather than buying manta or linkens"

                            i meant 'and' , not 'or'

                            so thats 10k of items that could have been spent elsewhere. 4k goes towards the cost of upgrading dominator into satanic, and thats where i got the 6k value from.

                            if you dont go linkens then you need an alternate form of hp regen, or you simply go back to base during downtime, because the chances are you're also out of mana too.

                            if ur gonna fight early, medallion is legit and replaces / upgrades from aquila if u went it. ive never gone urn weaver but idk, theorycrafting here. lots of early fighting, no linkens, an urn could help since you dont hit very hard early to benefit hugely from lifesteal, urn is cheaper and also gives mana regen.

                            compare medal to aquila
                            • 1025 vs 985g
                            • sages mask beats basi mana aura when int is above 33
                            • 6 armour comparable to the aquilas stats, which is 4 armour and 3 str
                            • aquila gives 18 damage, medallion gives variable damage through the -6 armour, it tops of at about 40% more damage vs 5 armour, 30% at 10 armour, and lowers to a 20% increase vs 20 armour.

                            i.e. if someone has 5 armour and u drop his armour to -1, you're doing 40% more damage than you were doing previously. idk about you but that's better than 18 damage from aquila even in the early game.

                            "The reason I went for a linkens is because if bloodseeker was 1v1 vs me, I could take him, probably not worth I guess."

                            that makes no sense, because you still cant. if he cancels with rupture and silences you, you're better off building damage. linken gives 15 agi and 10 damage but that's nothing compared to other 5k items. if he cancels with silence and he ruptures you, you still can't take him because rupture counters mobility, which is weaver's strength.

                            if it's a 1v1 you just tp + shukuchi if you're above 50% and he can't do anything. if you're below 50% you still tp out, just that shukuchi is useless. you cant fight him with 5k net worth, youd need bkb to block blade mail and also to time lapse. plus you'd also need something like crit + medal or desolator to deal good damage early on.

                            so no matter what you do, you will have to stand and fight. linkens does not help with that. linkens makes u an annoying little shit poking people with geminate and geminate, plus it lets you split push so that you delay the game until you get damage.

                            if you cannot use mobility / elusiveness to your advantage, linkens is not good. and if you have to fight early, which you did have to that game, linkens is also not good. it's not like you're a morph where linkens is basically 30 agi.

                            one, having 6.5k net worth (linkens + treads minimum) is not "early", so that means the time you're sitting in lane trying to farm an item that is useless anyways, is time wasted when u could be contributing to early fights.

                            two, it provides shit damage for it's cost. like bkb is better and bkb isnt even a damage item. bkb gives 10 str and 24 damage, linkens gives 15 str, 15 attack speed and 25 damage total, but if bkb blocks more than 95 hp's worth (5 str x 19 HP) of magic damage, then it offers more survivability. plus bkb being 1k cheaper means u can go aquila or medallion or whatever too.

                            Androgynous

                              "poking people with geminate and geminate"

                              geminate and shukuchi, im tired. anyways night

                              MLG Quickscoper 420 Kushlord

                                I didn't go aquila cause cm+kotl was a lot of mana. He was a bad player and always wasted silence on the linkens (below 3k anything makes sense lol). In all seriousness, thanks for the advice :)

                                ICE SKULL

                                  so ppl should tp out when bs silence someone

                                  ty dotabuff now im 7k mmr

                                  We Love You Akuzuma Oppa!

                                    Congrats in 7k

                                    J-Man

                                      I think Wave has made it a mission to call out everything I say now. Hate crime is a charm I say.

                                      Dire Wolf

                                        Your items are dumb dude, no deso, no mkb, on weaver. GG. Get those and you'll blow blood up, rage or no rage.

                                        MLG Quickscoper 420 Kushlord

                                          satanic>deso late game imo

                                          MLG Quickscoper 420 Kushlord

                                            also, mkb is very inefficient if the enemies have no evasion

                                            Androgynous

                                              deso is not core on weaver. it's good because it's better damage than a crystalys and more afforable than bfly / manta / radiance / daedelus etc, important when you need to fight asap but you need the most gold efficient item possible at ~25 minutes because half your networth has gone towards a bkb or linkens.

                                              if the game is lookig like it's going late there's no point getting desolator. you're better off getting crit and being *slightly* weaker during the mid game since u deso > crystalys, but you'll be stronger late when the gold you did not spend on a deso (4100) can be spent on upgrading crystalys to daedelus (3400) which is more powerful late, and does not cost you an extra item slot.

                                              mkb is outclassed by daedelus by far. each time you attack you get 7 extra damage. even if you crit like once every 10 attacks, the damage increase from critting will likely beat the damage difference between mkb and daedelus.

                                              mkb is shit against anything but evasion, since it doesn't scale unlike crit. it does when you're against evasion though, because vs 25% evasion, going from a 75% chance to hit without an mkb to going to 100% chance to hit is a 33% increase (1 / 0.75 = 1.33), and going from a 65% chance to a 100% chance e.g. vs butterfly is about a 50% dps increase since 1 / 0.66 (two thirds) = 1.5, so 1 / 0.65 is something like 1.53.

                                              vs PA's blur, going from hitting half your attacks to all of them is doubling your DPS (1 / 0.5 = 2), i.e. a 100% increase in DPS compared to the 35% of daedelus.

                                              timberwolf you have no experience with weaver, so idk why you're trying to pass off your opinion as fact. a butterfly would have been better against bloodseeker because 1. it grants evasion, and 2. if he is bloodraged, then he gets 120% of 30 extra damage due to butterfly, which is 36 extra damage, resulting in butterfly giving him 30 agi, 30 damage, 30 attack speed and 36 bloodrage damage, for a total of 96 damage and 30 attack speed, which clearly outclasses mkb for damage, on top of also giving hhim survivability

                                              MLG Quickscoper 420 Kushlord

                                                ^my thoughts exactly, except the derpy manta+linkens purchases. Why do bloodseekers always buy blademail? He had less than 1500 hp when he picked it up, seems awful, especially against 2 cores who often buy bkbs.

                                                Androgynous

                                                  disincentive to focus you down, and you have good ehp if you heal with bloodbath, allowing you to make use of the active since you're tanky as long as you keep getting kills.

                                                  MLG Quickscoper 420 Kushlord

                                                    is it worth do you think, assuming there are no big single target nukes like a laguna blade, just right clicks mostly?

                                                    Androgynous

                                                      yes

                                                      Androgynous

                                                        not always

                                                        Quick maffs

                                                          Blood does counter weaver hard

                                                          Unless you snowball like crazy

                                                          but the item build of that bloodseeker was really fucking bad, i dont see the point of shadow blade and radiance

                                                          ooooooooooo
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                                                            Androgynous

                                                              its more cost efficient because its like half the price of deso, but its not slot efficient. deso provides more damage because it obviously costs more.
                                                              its 2k cheaper than deso, but if you do get crystalys, what do you spend that extra 2k gold on?

                                                              linkens + deso + treads > linkens + crit + treads for damage.
                                                              you hit so much harder with deso than you do with crit in the mid game. your damage means you cant be ignored, but because you're a weaver the enemy has such a hard time dealing with you.

                                                              anyways if i rat with weaver i go radiance + manta rather than deso. deso's still good but if i can go greedy, i will opt for radiance instead, and an early boots of travel.

                                                              Quick maffs

                                                                Why i am so bad at this hero ? seriously i dont know why

                                                                ooooooooooo
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                                                                  J-Man

                                                                    That's retarded, Deso gives you armor reduction, something which your q is great at doing. With deso on weaver, you become a 1 shotting monster with a lot of attacks going in at the same time. Honestly, if you got crit first over deso, you're doing yourself an injustice.

                                                                    Why do you think heroes with abilites to give negative armor always build deso? cause less armor = easier to kill the person.

                                                                    also, it's not a "what if" chance either. Permanant, and reliable. Stupid reason to go crit first.

                                                                    chocoTaco

                                                                      Lets not forget this thread is about blood rage.

                                                                      Its definitely not overpowered. Just because its particularly good against certain heroes doesnt make it unfair. As long as youre not out of position it shouldnt be too much of a problen in lane. If hes casting it on you later in the game, thats his mistake and you should kill their whole team.

                                                                      Deso is better than crit on weaver. You dont want to be guessing whether or not you will crit when moving around and possibly diving into sticky situations.

                                                                      Linkens isnt overrated for weaver. Dont forget you need mana regen badly. If you dont get linkens then you will have to get something else with mana regen.

                                                                      matrice

                                                                        For some hero, bloodrage is stronger than doom to fuck them, so yeah it's fucking unfair

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